Ep 05. Stories and Memories, with Ulrika Ernvik

Today I’m interviewing Ulrika Ernvik, whom I met in Thailand shortly before we moved. She was leading a workshop designed for families in transition, where the whole family comes together as a unit for a series of interactive and reflective activities, alongside other families doing it at the same time, so we could hear from each other how the experience was and what insights we were getting, what surprises were coming up. And Ulrika was there wit her her vast experience personally having grown up as a Third Culture Kid, and her many years of experience counseling individuals and families living international lives.

I have to say that that workshop was a pivotal moment for me. I went into it feeling pretty confident about my family, our relationships, our ability to cope, our decision making and choices. We knew we had another international move coming up soon, and so since we’d done it once before, I knew that it was a big deal and there would be challenges that I couldn’t anticipate, but that in itself was a known factor. If that makes sense? We kind of knew what we were getting into, even though we knew it would be unimaginable.

Our kids were young when we did the workshop with Ulrika – nearly 7 and nearly 2. I knew there were things I needed to learn about raising Third Culture Kids but for the most part I felt at the time that we hadn’t really encountered the big issues yet. So all this is to say, I went into the workshop feeling not like we had a tremendous need, but like, why not!? It sounded intriguing, and a way that might help us feel more prepared.

And I was very pleasantly surprised by how meaningful it was for me and my husband, and how much my daughter enjoyed it – the 7 year old (the little one was along for whatever we were doing). One of the things I loved was how it gave the whole family this common experience, we built a memory together, we gained common vocabulary, and I think most importantly, we gained tools that we could use again. The activities were simple enough we could do them ourselves when needed, and the concepts we could now revisit together.

So that’s a little background on my connection to Ulrika. Now let’s hear from her.

[00:00:00] Well, thank you so much for coming and talking with me today. I appreciate your time so much.

[00:00:07] Thank you for inviting me.

[00:00:09] Yeah. So you are a social worker and a psychotherapist or a clinical counselor. And,

[00:00:17] Yes,

[00:00:18] Your focus is on families and expats and third culture kids. Is that accurate?

Ulrika: [00:00:28] Yes, it has been for many years. Now I’m in Sweden and I focus on all kinds of kids and families.

Kim: [00:00:34] Ok, ok, ok. So families is the family is and parenting is what I got. OK, great. And you’ve been doing this for many years and you have recently – well I don’t know how long it took you to put it together, but recently – published a book where you’ve collected and put out for other people to be able to have in their hands a lot of your favorite techniques and approaches and methods. And I think it’s wonderful. It is called “Third Culture Kids A Gift to Care” a fabulous title. And I have to say that reading this book has been just, to me, I can hear your voice so clearly in these pages. It’s just like sitting in the same room with you standing and giving a presentation. And I just think that’s beautiful. And you even commented in the beginning of the book about, oh, I hope my voice comes through because it had to be edited in another language.

Kim: [00:01:42] And so It’s such a calming and reassuring and fun approach that you bring and that really comes through. So thank you.

Ulrika: [00:01:55] Glad to hear that.

Kim: [00:01:57] Yeah. To start off, I wondered if you could tell us why is it so important for families in general and families like ours to make memories together as a family?

Ulrika: [00:02:19] Hmmm. Something happens when we make memories together. We create our life story. I think especially when we move around, our lives includes a lot of different parts that seems unconnected. But when we make memories, we sort of gather our different parts of life and our stories. Because in a family, we also have our individual life stories. But as we share memories together, as we make memories together, we create stories that we that we have together and that connects us with each other and also with other people around us. So it’s very healing in itself, can make memories and to include them in our life story.

Kim: [00:03:14] So because of the sense of connection that we feel?

Ulrika: [00:03:20] Mm-hmm. The sense of connection. And also, it seems like the brain automatically will make memories of hard times. But we need to be more intentional about making memories of good times. And that’s what we do when we intentionally do things together that make good memories.

Kim: [00:04:20] Ok. And what do you talk about story – creating our life story – what does that mean? Yeah, I suppose that’s a concept that I would like to hear more from you about. There’s a section in your book where you mentioned just a little quote here, you said, “Drawing my timeline that day,” talking about a workshop you attended “changed my life. You saw my tears and understood how important this was to me.” And so that was an activity that you did where you kind of laid out your life story on paper. It was such a profound moment for you, I wondered if you could say more about that.

Ulrika: [00:05:21] Yes, that was the first time that I made a lifeline, a timeline of my life. And I was in my forties already. And what became so visible on that timeline for me was that every third year I had moved. I am a TCK myself. I grew up in Africa and I have a Swedish passport. And that became very significant to me. As well as I had picked different colors for my different countries, and it was so healing for me to see all the colors sort of weave together on this timeline. I could see that the different parts of my life, they were connected. So I think that was also what became very emotional to me.And I think that’s why a life story, creating my life story is so important. I can see it all together.

Kim: [00:06:32] Yeah. So is this a concept that you feel is about being able to tell your story to other people or to be able to put it into words, or is it more about a feeling, and a sense of continuity within yourself?

Ulrika: [00:06:53] More within myself. My experience as being a TCK is that there is very hard to find people who want to listen to my story because it’s so hard for other people to understand it and grasp it. And my story becomes very easily too complicated and too long. So I think we can not expect other people to hear our story, to listen to it. And that’s not the most important. The most important is that I create my story. I tell my story. I shape my story. And it’s for me.

[00:07:39] Well.

Kim: [00:07:43] it’s a way for us to find meaning in the pieces?

Ulrika: [00:07:47] It is. It is. It’s about finding meaning. And it is like when we tell our stories to ourselves or to someone that is ready to listen when we draw it, the good parts have a tendency to start to glimmer. Because sometimes the hard parts become so strong, the hard memories become so strong. But when we have laid them down on the lifelines, the other parts start to come up.

Kim: [00:08:28] And so do you feel that we can assign the meaning that we would like? Or does it sort of emerge organically as you look at all the pieces on paper?

Ulrika: [00:08:41] It’s more like emerge. I often ask, What is it telling you? So it is like there is a story waiting to … It is like my story is waiting for me to listen.

[00:09:05] Oh.

Ulrika: [00:09:08] But it is like I need to see it sort of, you know, when you sometimes you’re a bit you look into your photo books or… It is the same thing, even if you don’t maybe have pictures or photos. But when when you see your life in some kind of way, it starts to talk back to you and you can say, oh, yes, that’s true. I haven’t thought about that.

Kim: [00:09:39] Yeah. OK. That’s very nice. There’s another section in your book I just wanted to highlight. It was in your introduction. I wanted to read a couple of paragraphs.

Kim: [00:09:58] You were talking about how some people wonder, why do we need to focus on third culture kids? They’re having all these adventures and they have great lives and their parents care for them. They’ve got a private school and exotic vacations. You know, why don’t you work with kids who are really struggling? And then you talk about how being a third culture kid is not the sum total of any person’s identity. And of course, in any group of people, you have some who are struggling and some who are not struggling. And so it’s not an automatic assumption that a third culture kid would be struggling, but that all children need to have someone around who understands their specific situation. And that third culture kids do have unique lives, which means they have unique needs. And if we can become wise to what those needs are, then we can support our children in the best way possible. So I wanted to highlight that, because I feel like as I begin to talk more and more to help parents understand these issues, it starts to feel like I’m only talking about the problems. But it’s not that there are so many problems, but just that it’s a unique aspect of our lives that needs to be pointed out to us. It doesn’t occur naturally that there are some needs.

Kim: [00:11:34] Yes.

Ulrika: [00:11:35] And I think especially if the parents are not TCKs themselves, it can be hard for them to see that their upbringing of their children became so different from their own upbringing, in deep ways. So, yes, it’s a good reminder that the life of a TCK is very different.

Kim: [00:12:01] And it’s something that I’m finding as I go along. Even though I read about some of the unique needs and some of the ways that a third culture kid’s life and identity is different, I really didn’t understand the depths of that until my daughter got older and she started to express certain things, you know, like she doesn’t really identify as an American. And I just, that just kind of blew my mind when it first came out. So there was really a difference between reading about it and then experiencing it firsthand.

Ulrika: [00:12:41] Yes.

Kim: [00:12:47] One of the things you talk about is how this life can bring a lot of extra stress to a person. And in one place, you call it an “unrealistic” life because it has these stressful elements that… They just pile and pile and pile on top of each other. And sometimes as expats, we put ourselves in situations that are so stressful that we didn’t even realize that it was beyond perhaps what we are prepared for.

Kim: [00:13:30] So one of your suggestions was to make sure that we have some margins, time-wise and emotionally and economically. And I wondered if you have any tips for families who are struggling to create margins in their lives. That sounds like a fantastic idea to me, but I’m not really sure how and where, you know, on the practical level, how do I go about adding some margin into my life?

Ulrika: [00:14:06] Yes, I think it was thought with time, it’s about not making a full schedule for my week, having some empty slots for things that might happen. And having some space where I can breathe myself, where I can spend a little bit extra time with a child that is struggling, where I can have a little time with my partner to talk through things.

Ulrika: [00:14:42] And so to make sure that I don’t schedule a back to back schedule. It is also about making sure that I have a day off, that we as a family have a day off per week, day where we don’t schedule a lot of things. But where we can just relax or we can do something that comes into our mind, something that is fun. I think it’s important to schedule for fun things.

Ulrika: [00:15:19] It can be something else. Watching a movie at home, it can be a take a walk. It can be play some board games, but really schedule time for this.

Ulrika: [00:15:33] When it comes to emotional margins, it’s mainly about that we as parents take care of ourselves, that we sleep well, that we exercise, spend time outdoors if possible. So we are emotionally. Ready for the needs of our kids. Because we need to be there for them.

Ulrika: [00:15:57] And when it comes to economical margins, it’s about finding ways to have a little bit of extra money that I can use if needed. To take a vacation, go somewhere.

Ulrika: [00:16:12] to buy something that is needed, to go if needed, back to our passport country to be present at a funeral or a wedding or something like that. And this is something we can ask people to help us with, not only in the moment, but to ask people to support. So we have some margins also in the bank account.

Kim: [00:16:39] OK, yeah. So a little bit of buffer to relieve stress and let you respond to life as needed.

Kim: [00:16:52] Ok. And then another suggestion you had there was to ask for a debriefing or you might call it a checkup. And you suggested twice a year to have a checkup. Someone who checks on you and your family to see that you’re doing well. What would you suggest for people who are in an organization where that’s not really part of what is offered by the organization? People who work for, you know, business people who work for a private company and they’re an employee, there’s not really much support for the family. How can people like that arrange for this checkup?

Ulrika: [00:17:41] Well, I think the first step is to always ask for it. And we see it natural that we take our car for a check up about twice a year. Why shouldn’t we do that with us? And why shouldn’t our organization do it for us? Because it’s a very cheap and efficient way to make sure that we continue to work, that we don’t get burned out.

Kim: [00:18:16] What form might this take? Do you suggest that would be someone from the employers organization or a counselor, somebody outside?

Ulrika: [00:18:26] It doesn’t have to be a counselor. It doesn’t have to be someone from the outside, but it has to be someone that is ready and maybe used to do this with families. So it does not become a just “talk session” where we answer yes or no, but that it becomes a meaningful time for us as family where we can process together with someone else.

Ulrika: [00:19:26] So in my book, there are a lot of ideas how you can do this. So either you can do it yourself with a family. That’s perfectly fine too. And pick out some activities to do together, like a Saturday evening as a Family Fun. But you can also ask someone and if they are not really used to do with a family, you can give them the book and even maybe suggest a few exercises that you have thought that would be good to do and ask them, could you please do this with us? Because it’s easier if it’s an outside person who is doing this with us.

Ulrika: [00:20:04] Or you could maybe do it for each other if you’re some families in an area. You could do it together as families. You can gather some families and do it together. Then it can be easier for the kids and teenager to join in if they have friends. Or you could maybe one adult in the family go and do it for another family and one adult from that family, come and do it for you. So there are plenty of ways you can do.

Kim: [00:20:34] Yeah, those are great ideas. And can you talk a little bit about the dynamic of having an outside person come and facilitate the activities versus doing it just within your family with your own family members?

Ulrika: [00:20:50] Yes, sometimes it’s hard. I’ve experienced that myself, even as a counselor. It’s sometimes it’s hard to say, “Oh, family, Would you like to join me for a few activities It can happen. But sometimes you feel like it’s easier if someone else comes and say, “Hi. Tonight we’ll spend two hours together and I have these activities we’ll do together and they’re all for you.” And yes, it can be easier to make it happen if an outside person is coming in.

Ulrika: [00:21:22] And sometimes if it is a trained person, it can be good for you as parents to spend a little bit time with the person afterwards and ask if she or he sees something that would be a concern that will be good to continue to talk about or work with.

Kim: [00:21:40] Ok, yeah. That’s good. Another piece in your book is about the importance of having reunions with other people who share similar life experiences. And that’s something that we are starting to think about with our oldest who, well, for all of our kids, but our oldest one I know is eligible to start going to a camp that I found that’s near where we usually visit in the summer. And one of your ideas was you said it’s really important to not overcomplicate this idea, but just find a way to get together with some people. And it doesn’t have to be fancy, but the point is more just about gathering with people who really understand your situation. Can you talk a little bit about what camps and reunions you’re aware of that are happening and what ages they’re for and where in the world they’re happening and what types of venues, and that’s how they’re organized?

Ulrika: [00:23:08] I don’t. Well, I’ve heard a lot about camps around the world, but it’s not that I can say that that camp is going on there and there and for that age group. So that’s mainly something that each family needs to find out. Set up reunions so you don’t have to travel far, so the kids don’t have to travel far. It can be some families doing something together. It can be that you do something for a group of kids.

Ulrika: [00:23:44] And again, I think it’s good to have, like a structure. It’s good to have like four, five days and you mix it with fun activities that you do, like games and sports and things like that, with processing activities, where you draw timelines, you talk about emotions. You talk about and share what is good and what is hard with the kind of lifestyle you are living. You can also have like stories, time for stories about the places where you live and share both their hard and the good.

Ulrika: [00:24:31] And I’ve also seen that for the kids, even if they don’t talk a lot about their countries where they’re living, just knowing that Oh, these other kids are also living a third culture kids life, where they are moving in between countries. It’s sort of relieving and relaxing for them to just know that.

Kim: [00:24:51] Yeah.

Ulrika: [00:24:54] I also see that it’s good to gather kids in different ages. For the younger kids like 10 years old to see how the older kids, maybe even the young adults, have coped. And to have some activities together, maybe also some for the different ages. But it is something very powerful to see how the older ones have coped and how they have found their life’s voice.

Kim: [00:25:28] So put them in mixed age groups for at least some of the time.

Ulrika: [00:25:34] Yes.

Kim: [00:25:38] What what would you say are some red flags or signs that families can look for within their own families indicating that they might need to seek some counseling help?

Ulrika: [00:25:55] Red flags could be a very angry child. Anger can be a sign of depression in children. Another red flag, if they are struggling in school it could be a sign that life is just overwhelming to them.

Kim: [00:26:18] Yeah. Struggling in what way?

Ulrika: [00:26:22] It can be both social and academically, and it can be about the school itself is struggling, but it can also be that adjustment or other stress factors is taking so much energy from this so they don’t have energy for the schoolwork.

Kim: [00:26:41] Ok.

Ulrika: [00:26:43] And another red flag can be if they say that they don’t want to live in that country, if they say like they hate that country, they hate the people living there. It’s sort of their way to communicate that I’m not struggling right now, I’m not getting well.

Kim: [00:27:13] If a child expresses that they hate this country or don’t want to live here. When would that be a normal stage that they might go through vs. a sign that there’s something that needs to be looked at more deeply?

Ulrika: [00:27:29] I think it’s important to be aware about whether they get stuck. Because that can be a phase they’re going through. It can be the beginning. It can be after a couple of years. It can be for different reasons. But if you see that the child is stuck in a behavior or in a state for more than two or three weeks. Then you should try to find out what is going on.

Kim: [00:28:01] OK. All right. And then you had some other.

Ulrika: [00:28:07] Some other signs, of course is if they have a hard time to sleep if they don’t eat or they eat too much. Yeah. Anxiety. And if they start to self harm themselves, of course.

Kim: [00:28:28] And what would you suggest for families who live in an area where they don’t have ready access to a counselor? How can they go about finding a good match for their families? Or even if they do have access to several counselors in their city? Can you describe that process of… I think of it, like it might be a little bit like dating, where you have to try a few and see how you get on, but how can we make that assessment and get recommendations and try to shorten that process?

Ulrika: [00:29:12] I think it’s good to ask a counsellor if he or she has some experience of living overseas or have been working with families living overseas.

Ulrika: [00:30:09] I think it’s also good to find a counselor that is ready to work with the whole family. Maybe combining individual sessions with family sessions and couple sessions.

Kim: [00:30:22] Ok.

Ulrika: [00:30:24] I think it’s perfectly fine to work over Skype or online platforms. Because most often it’s about the parents getting tools about how to help their children. I think parents can do a lot if they find the right tools and have good support.

Kim: [00:30:58] Ok. Are there some Web sites or places that we can go and look to get listings of family counselors? I can certainly recommend people look to you, If people want more ideas. Where do you suggest that they start to look?

Ulrika: [00:31:23] Oh. I don’t know.

Kim: [00:31:33] OK, no problem.

Ulrika: [00:31:36] I mean, there are a few websites. It’s always hard websites, because they change the whole time. It’s not that I can think about the websites that have a list of counselors like that. No, I don’t have a good answer on that one.

Kim: [00:32:00] Ok. This is something that I do see come up. As you say it. It does change. I’ve seen a few different people trying to gather those sorts of resources. Yeah, you never know: Is it up to date? Is it recent? OK, good.

Kim: [00:32:29] Is there anything else that you would like to add after what we’ve talked about so far?

Ulrika: [00:32:36] That TCKs are a beautiful gift.

Kim: [00:32:43] Yes.

Ulrika: [00:32:43] As you said before, it’s always important to remember what beautiful gifts we give to our kids as giving them the lifestyle of being third culture kids. And also to help them to see that still being with them those days when they cannot see that. That also… also be thankful and and see what we have. That is a gift.

Kim: [00:33:20] Yeah, well, I really respect your work, and I thank you so much for sharing it so generously, in a way that other people can access it. It’s a beautiful gift as well. So thank you.

Ulrika: [00:33:37] I’m happy you found it, and I’m happy you want to share it with others.

I loved speaking with Ulrika and I hope you felt her warmth and wisdom.

I want to highlight her book and her websites so you can find more if you liked what you heard today. (You’ll find links to all these bits in the show notes.)

Her book is called Third Culture Kids A Gift to Care For and it’s currently sold on Amazon. I do think this book is a must have for all globally mobile families. There are soooo many activities, and ideas and perspectives, this books is a gold mine. And I understand that some people don’t feel like they have the time to read on these topics – which is a big reason why I’m doing the podcast and putting together the materials I am – or maybe the reading part would be fine but the implementation part might be more challenging. In that case, do check out workshops on my website, as I’m developing ways to facilitate these activities in an online format. If you could access Ulrika in person that would definitely be the better way, but if you don’t have access to in-person support in your city, then do try online… see Resililient Expats . com / services / family workshop.

Ulrika’s website is in Dutch so I may not pronounce it correctly! But it means “Family Joy”. It’s familije gladje dot se.

And she has another website that is Safety Stories dot se, where she’s sharing a trauma processing model that she’s developed. I wrote about it a little bit on my blog post titled, “Three Ways to Process Stressful Events” … but for the full description for Ulrika’s Safety Stories model, check out her website.