Ep 04. Preparing for University in the UK, with Natalie Lancer

Kim: [00:00:01] I saw an article published on LinkedIn by Alice Sergent called, “Five Reasons Why You Should Hire Third Culture Kids.” Third Culture Kids or TCKs are those who are being raised outside of their passport country. And that whole life – for the parents, raising those kids, and the kids themselves, and the family unit as a whole – is, of course, what I love to talk about.

Kim: [00:00:25] I know for many, many families, the transition to university is a major concern. Where are my kids going to go to university? Is it going to be in our passport country, or in a place that’s new to us and so even though it’s affordable or desirable for some reasons, we don’t really understand the educational system there. How can we prepare our kids to get into the school of their choice, especially if we’ve jumped around to more than one international school and there’s not a strong continuity through their education? Or if we’re at a school during those last critical couple of years that doesn’t have an especially strong university prep and transition program. Maybe they don’t have a dedicated staff person specifically helping students with their selection and application process. Or maybe there is fantastic help but it’s a consultant they connect with online so the access is more limited. Another issue some families face is feeling like their child’s options are limited when it comes to gaining job experience, which might be paid or volunteer work. And they need some ideas on how to set themselves up for success when it comes to being set up well for the university application process.

Kim: [00:01:43] So today I’m talking with Natalie Lancer, the Educational Guidance Guru, because she has some concrete strategies that can really help. Natalie spent many years as a teacher and an assistant school head, and she now specializes in helping students prepare for university.

Kim: [00:02:28] And she offers trainings and fun challenges inside her Facebook group, which is called “Natalie Lancer, Helping you find your way through GCSEs, A-Levels and Uni.” So if you like what you hear today, I definitely recommend you check out her group.

Kim: [00:02:47] Now, awhile ago, she ran a challenge around the topic of study skills, and I found it really helpful. Her advice was really practical and realistic for different personalities and the realities of life with teens. So as a parent, I’m not a teacher, I’m not living and breathing this stuff everyday, so I really loved the tips. I learned a lot, found it really helpful.

Natalie: [00:03:12] Oh, good.

Kim: [00:03:13] Yeah. So, Natalie, I want to give you a chance to introduce yourself. What else would you like to tell listeners about your background and what you do currently?

Natalie: [00:03:24] Well, I’m an educational consultant now, having spent 13 years as a teacher, as you said, in various different roles. I was always the person who was in charge of the UCAS applications and specifically the Oxford and Cambridge applications at the school. You mentioned in your intro about

Natalie: [00:03:58] a role you said that exists.

Kim: [00:04:01] Well, in some schools we call it the counselor, and that person helps with the university applications and admission. But I know different systems use different terms for that.

[00:04:13] Well, traditionally it’s a teacher who does that, and it’s not sort of a separate role.

Natalie: [00:04:23] It’s sort of like an add on position. And it gets done you know, sort of, given that it’s not their full time focus, it gets done sort of well or badly, just according to, I guess, how much time the person has to give it. But actually, I took on that role in my last school, where I was the director of higher education, they sort of made a new role for me. The rationale of my private business is that the number the number of hours I think one needs to speak to young people about these issues far exceeds what you could possibly do in a school. I mean, it takes like four hours each, I would say, one to one, to really get to the bottom of everything. And that’s not including things like mock interviews. And I offer a complete service where I do that.

Kim: [00:05:20] Oh, that’s great. And yes, that is what I have observed in the schools that my husband has worked at, is that it’s it’s a huge job. And parents obviously play a big role in that. But sometimes they they need some additional help.

Natalie: [00:05:38] Yeah, and I think I should also mention I wrote a book called “Getting Into Oxford in Cambridge,” which I shall show you.

Natalie: [00:05:48] And this is what really got me into all this, To start with I think the problem with parents getting busy around this (I say “problem” with inverted commas) is often they’re basing what they know on information that was current when they applied, which could be 20, 30 years before. And actually, you know, things have moved on. And even ideas about what one should study have completely moved on. I mean, I even I remember when, like, you know, I really only thought about doing medicine or law and I just didn’t know what was available and I didn’t know. And this is the thing that no one seems to realize in the UK. And it might be country specific, but really, it doesn’t matter what you study, with the exception of the subjects like medicine, where you obviously need to be a doctor, and engineering and subjects like that, architecture.

Natalie: [00:06:52] Really any degree will get you into a graduate management scheme.

Kim: [00:06:59] Mm hmm.

Natalie: [00:07:00] So you don’t need to study business, you don’t need to study finance, you can study what ever you want, from archaeology to, you know, French.

Kim: [00:07:09] That is really helpful advice, and it gives, you know, unless they have a predetermined path that’s one of those that you mentioned, it gives them a lot more freedom just to go with their passions and their interests and specialize further down the road.

Natalie: [00:07:24] That’s right. And I think parents, particularly, you know, I have so many conversations where they’re like, “No they’ve got to,” you know, “If they’re going to be an accountant, they have to learn those financial principles.” It’s like, yeah, but they don’t need to do that as an undergraduate. All the training is put on for them in the firms when they get a job. For example, in that particular case of accounting, some call it banking. You don’t need to do economics to do banking. In fact, the best thing you could probably do is languages. So, you know, there’s a lot of myths there. And so much of what I do is just, you know, holding some of these myths up to scrutiny. There’s certainly lots of myths around Oxford nd Cambridge, which I also try and debunk.

Kim: [00:08:10] Wow. That is that is great. OK. Well, I first thought of you when I read this article, “Five reasons why you should hire third culture kids,” Because I know that you like to talk about helping students identify and develop their skill sets. And this was an article that goes into five skill sets that are common among TCKs. I wanted to get your perspective on which of these you think are especially important to highlight in some way when kids are preparing for university entrance. 

So the ones that were noted and discussed in this article are: 1. Cultural intelligence, which means being able to bridge gaps with understanding and diplomacy. 2. Sensitivity to diversity and inclusion, which comes out of being committed to making sure everyone finds their place. The 3rd one is Interpersonal skills – being very strong in communication and relationship building. 4. Being adaptive, having a high tolerance for ambiguity, this means navigating through the unfamiliar with relative calm. That’s a skill I am highlighting right now during this period of the globe. Number 5. Having innate curiosity and problem solving, these are people who can find new ways to create value.

Natalie: [00:09:40] I think when thinking about this, we have to be clear. They have to differentiate two time periods. There’s the time period of what will be useful AT university, and I’m gonna come back to that in one moment… and what is useful specifically for the application? And these are two different, distinct periods of time and situations. And I just want to explain what I mean. I am speaking about the UK here as well. So. For the application, 85% of the personal statement, which is the one page essay you write about why you want to do your subject, is solely centered about why you want to do your subject. They really don’t care about any soft skills in that part.

Kim: [00:10:32] OK.

Natalie: [00:10:33] With the exception of the helping professions. So medicine are very interested in all these soft skills like interpersonal skills, sensitivity, all the rest of it, and, you know, dentistry and anything that, you know, would require that sensitivity.

Natalie: [00:10:55] But when what we’re talking about – to use my earlier example of archaeology or French (I’m going to come up to those just random examples during this interview) – quite honestly, they don’t care about these. But that does not mean they’re not important, because as much as I said, you can study any degree and get into a graduate management scheme, which is 100 percent true. The requirement is that you get a 2:1. Now for those not familiar with our grading at university, it goes 1st, 2:1, 2:2. Bit like A, B, C, if you like. And if you don’t get a 2:1 or above, you won’t be going into a management training scheme. Right. So options rapidly close if you get 2:2 rather than a 1st and 2:1. There’s always exceptions. There’re going to be people saying, “Well I got a 2:2.” Yes, I know. But for 95% of people options close.

Natalie: [00:12:01] And how do you get a 2-1? Well, first of all, it requires you actually liking your subject because you’ve got to study it for three years. Remember, in the U.K. you study the same subject the whole time, we don’t have a system of a broad curriculum that narrows. And you have to get good, good grades that accumulate, that average out to a 2:1. And in order to do that, you are going to have to have innate curiosity and problem-solving. You are going to have to be adaptive to a new course, a new life at university, new way of learning. You are going to have to tolerate ambiguity because that is exactly what most university curriculum is all about understanding the nuances of argument. 

You’re certainly going to have to have interpersonal skills, not only because of group work at university, but just to survive it. And if we’re not going to survive it, you won’t get a 2:1. And also cultural intelligence, particularly if you go to a university that’s not in your home country, to get in with them, to make friends. If you don’t have friends, you’re not going to survive university and you won’t get 2:1. So what I’m saying to you is, for the actual application, which is a very narrow time period, Are these so important? Not really. Only for specific subjects, but are they important to get that 2:1, and to, you know, be employable? Absolutely they are.

Natalie: [00:13:34] And in fact, these skills will probably be more highlighted in any application for jobs, which I also help people with incidentally – internships and jobs – when you have to essentially do another personal statement. I think that’s when these will be even more important. And just to explain on one more thing, there is a sort of

Natalie: [00:14:06] like a cumulative effect. Because if you have good interpersonal skills, and you’re culturally sensitive, you’re probably going to hit the ground running when you go to university. Probably going to end up going to some societies, taking a leadership position, you know, being the face of a particular society. And that will go on your CV. You know, if you end up as Treasury secretary, Chair of a society and you you know, you can get on with people, that speaks volumes. That’s what the employees want to hear. And people who don’t have those sorts of skills can be very silent at university, very overlooked. It’s those people who I worry about, because if you just go to university and just do your work and sort of that’s it, actually, you’re not going to get one of the top jobs. Because it’s the other stuff that gets you the job. We assume everyone is going to get 2:1 with the caveats I explained earlier. But if you don’t have these extra feathers to your bow, probably the wrong expression …

Kim: [00:15:16] Feathers in your cap.

Natalie: [00:15:22] Yeah. Strings to your bow, whatever. So if you don’t have those extra whatever they are, then you’re just not going to stand out. So these are really important. I wonder if they’re more important just a couple of years later than what you might have thought.

Kim: [00:15:43] Yes. Yes. No, that’s exactly right. And I think this also points to. You know, I know the UK system is different, but I haven’t been through it with one of my kids. And so, like you say, I’m still 20 – more than 20 years – behind. My understanding of university entrance is from the American system and a long time ago. We had to write a bit more of a passion statement related to life experience. And so I think these types of things might have been highlighted a little bit more than what you were describing in the British system that’s more about putting your work experience, your school work experience into an essay form.

Natalie: [00:16:31] Well, I mean, just on that point, I mean, you’re absolutely right. The American system’s always been about caring about what extracurricular stuff you do, what sort of person you are. And I think this has given rise to parents being over the top. Not not that they’re not right, because I think the universities have made it a breeding ground for parents to be like, got to be in every single team, got to be in this, got to be in that, got to do 20 extra things, like… Which I despise. I mean, just stay at home and relax, which is why that’s the only good thing about Coronavirus is that we’re all at home and relaxing and just chill out. You know, I think that’s very important for children. And that sort of frenetic culture of, you know, sort of schlepping children from one activity to the next. It actually freaks me out and I can’t bear to watch it. But of course, everyone does it. People do even do it here. I don’t do it personally and I strongly disagree. 

But in America, I think you kind of have to, to kind of keep up with what these universities are expecting. But you absolutely don’t have to do that here. There’s no prizes to be had for doing that at all. Well, I would say it’s not about volume. It’s about genuinely finding an interest. And I am talking about an academic interest. I’m not talking about volleyball. I’m saying I’m not talking about any sport. I’m not talking about orchestra. I’m not talking about ballet. I’m talking about, Are you interested in dinosaurs. Are you interested in teeth? Are you interested in, you know, verb formations?

[00:18:19] Whatever it is that gets you mildly, you know, reasonably excited. Then read a book on it. Find out a bit more and then decide: Do you still find it mildly exciting or actually was your five minute introduction enough? If when you read a book on it, it was awful, it could be that the topic is not for you. Or it could be that the book was badly written, which happens a lot, particularly in academic writing. In which case I wouldn’t, you know, discard the entire subject. I would find another book, just very simple introductions to different works. In fact, if you email me, my email address is Natalie @ EducationalGuidanceGuru dot com, I am very happy to give some book suggestions for specific interests. And what I think is important is to read. Read, read, read. Watch, documentaries. You know, if your kid is fascinated by the Second World War, let them become an expert. Watch loads of documentaries on YouTube.

[00:19:25] You know, I don’t mind what it is. No one cares, at the end of the day, what is they’re Passionate about. As I said, it doesn’t matter what degree you do. What does matter is that they have a spark. And it’s that spark that you can nurture. Not, just to tell you again, not by going to orchestra every day and being on the team, but by reading a book or by reading a magazine. Is there like a history – just continuing that example – is there a History magazine you can subscribe to that comes out maybe monthly? Is there a local history society that would like volunteers where your child could go and do something? I certainly know where I live, they’re always screaming for volunteers to come and sort of walk people around the little museum we’ve got here. And if we’ve got a museum, I know you’ve got a museum because I live in a very small area.

Natalie: [00:20:21] And, you know, there’s also work experience in museums. Can you go on archaeological dig? Have you gone to

[00:20:37] sites abroad? When you when you go traveling, you know, are you interested in those historical sites? These are the things I would accumulate in terms of your university application.

Natalie: [00:20:49] I want to say one more thing. Remember I said that 85% of the personal statement is about all these things I’ve just mentioned, which could include work experience, although not necessarily. When it could include work experience, that would be when you work experience is related or almost related. For example, spending time in a law firm may well require you to sift through documents, which is very useful for history. So it’s like not directly related. Working in a museum is obviously directly related. Both of those could be part of that 85%. 

If, however, you’re going to go work in a bank for a week, it’s great. I’m not convinced that would go in the 85%. But in the 15% that is remaining, what would go in there is all that sort of, shall we call it the American stuff. In that 15%, which I’m not 100 percent sure anyone reads anyway because it’s at the bottom, and I think if you haven’t made the impression from the first know, 85%, I don’t think they’re going to get there. 

But to sort of clinch the deal, if you like, add what else have you done in terms of … could be sport, could be music, could be just like giving a talk at your school, could be helping younger years, being a buddy, being a mentor, fundraising, could be work experience that was completely unrelated, you know, that extra thing, could be you’re a film buff, you know, whatever it is that would go last. I’m not completely pooh poohing the notion of anything like that, the softer skills, for the UK. I’m just saying, for those used to an American system, you’ve got to just start again in how you think about this.

Kim: [00:22:34] Yeah, very much.

Natalie: [00:22:36] And remember, this is reflective of the fact that what the students do from the minute they arrive at university in the U.S. and the UK is completely different. In the UK from the minute they get there, they’re only doing that subject they applied for. So they do need to sound convincing, and convinced that they want to do that subject because there’s no room for maneuver. Like they are doing it from the minute they get there, and they’re doing it for three years solid. Whereas, of course, the whole point of the US liberal arts system is that you can choose as you go through it – which for the record, I think is much better, but it is what it is. So there you are.

Kim: [00:23:17] Ok. Yeah, there’s a lot there. Could we go back for just a moment to your example of orchestra? If you have a student who is convinced that they want to study music, how do you suggest that they demonstrate that?

Natalie: [00:23:37] Oh, yes, of course. I don’t mean that. Obviously pursuing your passion If your subject is music, then obviously you do need to do orchestra. But also, I don’t want to also sound like I’m anti music or anti sport. I love both. I’m just saying let them come to it because they want to. You know, don’t pressure them into it. You know, they don’t need to be in five orchestras. Maybe they could be in one, you know, and only if they want to. If they don’t want to practice anymore and they’re fed up with their instrument, there’s literally nothing to be gained from forcing it. Just leave it. Let them come back to it when they’re an adult, if they want to. There’s no prize for it whatsoever. 

So everyone needs to chill out in terms of everyone. You know, if you can foster an interest in your child that lets them chill out, like for me, is running. Right. I didn’t know personally that that was the thing that made me chill out until about two years ago. But it’s not too late. You don’t need to cram this into, like, five years of life. It isn’t like between 12 and 17 your life’s over if you haven’t tried every musical instrument out there. Do you know what I mean? There’s a whole life ahead of them. But all you’re actually doing is giving them the skill – and it’s one of the skills here – of being curious. That’s it. And taking risks that, you know, you can try it. And you can leave it. You know, let’s applaud the people who say I’ve done piano for three years and I don’t want to do it anymore. It’s not for me. I’ll try something else. Or not. Or I’ll play chess. Or not. Or I’ll take up art. Art’s not better than piano. Piano is not better than chess. It’s just horses for courses. None of those will get you into university. Unless, of course, you applied for art, in which case the art’s important.

Kim: [00:25:27] Mm hmm.

Natalie: [00:25:30] Also, I just want to point out, as well as having these things like to chill out, you know, it’s good to have like, you know, if you can put on some music and enjoy it and that helps you chill out, then obviously you’re going to become a more rounded person and more able to, like, not burn out. And it will help you in all your other pursuits. It’s also where people make friends. You know, you do make friends on the football team in a drama rehearsal, one hundred percent. And I’m not saying don’t do it. I’m just saying enjoy it for what it is, rather than a means for an end. You’re not doing it for any brownie points because it’s going to get you into Uni. It won’t, in the UK. But is it going to get you friends and make you happy and stuff? Yes, it will. So do it for that reason. If you like it. Otherwise, it’s torture.

Kim: [00:26:25] Yes, I love that message. I think that’s a nice, well-rounded, reasonable approach. We have a hard time just keeping up with school and one activity a week. And right now, I feel very glad that I don’t live in the US where, when I listen to friends and what they are up against with their schedules, it just makes me tired just listening.

Natalie: [00:26:51] Yeah. Me too.

Kim: [00:27:00] OK, so as far as young people who are still in high school, what types of skills are you suggesting that they try to cultivate?

Natalie: [00:27:15] Again, I think it’s like, say, if they are applying for medicine, for example, we definitely want to see leadership, communication, teamwork. If they’re not doing medicine or dentistry. You know, I mean, if you’re going to study whatever, I’m going to give like a stupid example now, like maths. There is no particular point, you know. Great if you’re a good communicator. But it doesn’t matter if you you’re not They only care, the universities, if you’re good at maths or not. Right.

Natalie: [00:27:44] In terms of, you know, what’s going on right now, as in, right-right now. the kids who have got a little bit of flexibility and resilience are the ones who are not going to be freaking out as much as the people who have never developed that. And because life is full of the unknown. Which, you know, is something that I’ve been saying for years. And, you know, it is obviously the case, right this second, no one could have predicted Coronavirus.

Natalie: [00:28:23] Kids all going to be worried and their mental health is gonna be affected. But anything you can do to bolster their mental health in very general terms, just just having a can-do attitude. Just having an attitude about, you know, life has ups and downs. That’s what life is. Life isn’t always rosy. You just, you know, embrace that. It just is. There’s nothing you can do. Knowing when there’s nothing you can do. And you can learn these things through just very small episodes in life.

Natalie: [00:28:53] But, you know, the other day, my my daughter was communicating with her friend on Skype for the first time. She’s eight. And I’ve told her about Internet safety many, many times. And she found a person on Skype who had the same name as her friend. So she thought it was her other friend. And she wrote this little girl’s name in and she said, “Oh, look, I’m friends with what’s her name. And she lives in America.” I said she doesn’t live in America, she lives round the corner, you know she does. This is clearly not the same person. And you’re now connected to like a random person, which is not allowed And we went through. Oh, mom, I don’t want a computer in my room at all. And I said, no, that’s not the answer either, It’s fine. Nothing bad has happened. But to make sure in the future nothing bad happens as a result of you adding random people on Skype. We now learn that people have the same name and that we don’t add them. You check with me. I know because I’m the adult, you know, it is me you check with.

Natalie: [00:30:08] And I think things like fostering an environment where she will check with me as it happens. I could tell what she was doing, which was part of my plan, because my office is below her room. So I actually heard everything and realized what was going on. And that’s one of the things, you know.

Natalie: [00:30:27] For example, don’t let your child speak to people online, et cetera, where you can’t see what they’re doing. You know, if you’ve got, like, an idea of what’s going on, then you can deal with it and you can have an open conversation. So it’s more skills in terms of like being open, being honest, sharing with you, not being afraid that when you’ve made a mistake. Say Okay, I’ve done that, and what are we going to learn from it? It’s these sorts of very, very general life skills. I think it means that when you have a difficult situation, they’ll be able to bounce back from that really quickly.

Natalie: [00:31:09] And I’ve seen children not bounce back from things quickly, and their whole future has been made more difficult than necessary. Like they you know, they flunk exams not cause they didn’t do the work because they did do the work and they burnt out and they just went crazy just before. And that’s a shame.

Kim: [00:31:29] Yeah.

Natalie: [00:31:29] And it’s like, well, how did you ever get to that stage? And what was not in place earlier on, sort of working backwards.

Kim: [00:31:39] Yes. So this goes along with your earlier comments about just having a well-balanced lifestyle and having parents who are not super directive and dictating what their kids do, but are available and right there alongside them. And when they run into an issue, it’s not all or nothing. It’s like you have to find the middle ground because that’s where the learning happens.

Natalie: [00:32:07] Yeah. And also, I have another interesting thing, I just sort of is and I try and role model this all the time, is that I’m still learning. I don’t actually have all the answers. I’m still learning. And, you know, they will copy you. So if you read a lot, they’ll read the law. You know, if you watch telly all day, they’ll watch telly Day. If you’re on your phone day, they’ll be on their phone all day. They’re literally copying you. So there’s no point thinking to yourself, why is my child on her phone all day? Without putting herself under the same scrutiny, because the answer is probably that you are. So you’ve got to model the behavior you want.

Kim: [00:32:49] I was out for a walk with my daughter the other day and I was horrified to observe that she was walking along with this plastic phone, you know, a play toy. And she was walking along with her head down and her finger on it. And I said, what are you doing? She said, oh, I’m just I’m just sending a message. She had some explanation of what she was doing, but it was not part of a storyline in her head. It was just, oh, this is how you walk. I was just horrified. So, yes. Put the mirror right back on yourself.

Natalie: [00:33:31] Yeah, I think also, you know what? This business about being shut up at home and sort of back to basics. You know, a number of people I’ve been speaking to said we’ve finally got a decent amount of sleep at night, which is something else that’s very important. And I think we should try and maintain that. Sleep is so important. I don’t know why people don’t love sleep and talk about it in the way that people talk about I don’t know, doughnuts or something. Like it’s great. And i free. Just have more sleep. And if your child can have more sleep. You know teenagers should have nine hours sleep, minimum. OK. 

So if they’re not having that, then again, there’s health applications. Even getting them to, like, plan their own meals, help you cook the meals, teach them how to eat healthily and all that sort of thing, and exercise. I think the thing about finding their interests, just coming back to that, is it is tricky as a parent because you might not share the interest. And I think we really important thing is, is to acknowledge that you will probably not share the same interests. But that doesn’t mean you are incapable of funding a book that they want to buy. You know, they found a book that they want to buy. Ok good! Buy it for them, it costs about two pounds, you know, so. And you can certainly discuss it with them even if you don’t find it as fascinating.

Kim: [00:35:10] Yeah, that’s a that’s a good point. My experience with that is with Minecraft. My daughter wants me to play with her and I just have zero interest. And I recognize that on some level it’s good bonding time and I’m learning, you know, what she’s into, and I just have no interest in it. But you’re speaking more on an academic level of supporting some interest. That’s a good point. Yeah.

Natalie: [00:35:38] But you can always find some common ground. It is boring I think when you’re playing with children, you know, the sort of role play things with dolls or whatever it is you’re playing. I have to do that as well.

Natalie: [00:35:56] But, you know, I sort of turn it into something like, they’re all at school. I quite like, you know, if I had to play a game, I wouldn’t mind playing schools. If I’m the teacher, obviously. So, you know, there are ways of turning into something you enjoy. For example, in your case, you could challenge your daughter, she can make her own radio program, her own podcast. Or make their own YouTube video? You know, they don’t have to record it even. They just need to just. That’s just the play. That’s just the role play.

Kim: [00:36:32] Yeah. Mm. Good. Good idea. So can you tell us a bit about the workbook you have? I know it’s a fantastic resource, and it’s to be used for students from as early as eighth grade, all the way up through high school and all the way through university to job applications. Right?

Natalie: [00:36:56] That’s right. Over the course between age, something like 14 to 25, your child is going to have a variety of experiences and they’re going to need to think about these in times of in their jobs. Do they want to replicate them? Do they want to avoid them? What parts did they like? What parts didn’t they like? And I say everyone should have work experience every single year, every single summer or whatever, between 14 and 25 or basically until you get a job, whatever that may be. And I’ve made a workbook where you can record all the information. It’s all structured so it tells you what information is important to keep hold of so you can refer to it. And it’s all in one place in this workbook. It’s kind of fun. It’s a bit like a journal. It’s kind of fun to read is like a sort of one of these bullet journal type of things.

Kim: [00:37:49] Yeah, I like the fact that like you say, it’s all in one place and they can keep coming back to it and see over time. Well, they might see that their interests have evolved over time. Or they might see that each time I come back to it. Yep, I’m still interested in that. I still want to focus on that. And it just reinforces. I really like that.

Natalie: [00:38:08] Yeah. And, you know, it helps students work out what skills they want to work on in advance of their work experience. I think people go about work experience, they don’t get the most out of it, basically, because they don’t plan it in advance. They sort of turn up on the day and sort of are very passive about it and actually could be much more active. Much more active about making contact with other people at the work experience, not just your immediate sort of person in charge of you.

[00:38:40] And you can think about specific skills you’re developing in different self marks out of ten. That’s what this book helps you do, all of that sort of thing. I think it’s it reminds me a bit of old school photographs, and I don’t mean school photographs, I mean like old-school, as in old, and how we had photo albums, and digital. I mean, the fact is, it is all on your computer. And you could write these notes on the computer and you could find different emails and different things. So when you were 25, probably you could look back over the last eight, nine years and like cobble together some of the information. The truth is, you never will. It will take ages. You’ll have changed e-mail accounts by then. You’ve lost some of the data. You know, you won’t have captured your reflections. You’d never bothered making the reflections because unless you do it immediately, they’ve gone.

Natalie: [00:39:36] So it’s a bit like having an album, but an album for your work experience. But it’s not just looking back as a sort of like nostalgic. That is looking forward. It helps you build your CV, this work book, it takes you through it, making your dream CV, looking at your actual CV, how to bridge the gaps. Your social media presence. You know, people don’t realize some of the rubbish people put on their social media accounts. You know, companies are looking at these, they’re readily searchable online. And what do they say about you? This book is going to hold your hand through all of these different things.

Kim: [00:40:13] I think that it’s a great workbook. I had one question. To what degree do you encourage parents to be involved in using this workbook vs. putting it in the student’s hands and having them be in charge of it?

Natalie: [00:40:30] It depends on their age. You’re going to keep this book basically between 14 and 25. I don’t think you need to, like, police them, you know, over a certain age. The act of reflection is itself a fairly mature skill. And students will need to learn how to reflect. There is step by step in this book and it is sort of, it’s not like just free text, you write whatever you want, you know. It is guided. 

But it’d be much better if this book was used as part of a discussion that you have with your child about what they enjoyed. if you think about it even as a prompt that, you know, when you’re having a conversation with your child about what is it that they liked from their work experience, can they see themselves doing this in the future? Blah, blah, blah, blah? Sometimes these conversations, you know, they seem impossible to have. But if you’re like, you know what? We’re going to answer these questions together. You are actually having that conversation, just taking the focus a bit away from the pressure of two people having a difficult conversation. Also, I offer consultations myself where I help people reflect and we can fill it in together as well.

Kim: [00:41:41] Ok, so people can find this workbook on your website. Yes. And what else can they find on your website?

Natalie: [00:41:49] I’ve got lots of freebies on there. Lots of, like, interesting downloadable sheets, tips. And also I’ve got some other courses. I’ve got something called the Action and Traction Program, which helps students find that thing they’re passionate about in terms of subject that we were talking about earlier. I’ve got a course that helps people do that. That runs September to May every year. So there’s information about that as well. 

And I’ve got some information about, a little bit more about me, a little bit more about some of my students and what they’ve achieved. But I think the best thing is if you if you want to work with me. And that could be anything from choosing GCSEs, choosing A-levels, choosing a degree subject, Oxford and Cambridge, medical sSchool, and general as well. Just any UK university for any subject. Also about CVs for young people, which is like a different ballgame to an older person because they’ve got less experience. Then just send me an email and we can book in a time to have a chat and see how I can best help you.

Kim: [00:43:14] That’s fantastic.

Kim: [00:43:52] So we’ve been talking about the usual path from school to university and beyond. And right now we’re in a stage where that’s a little bit up in the air. So we’re recording this just a little while after major exams were canceled around the world. And so a lot of families are wondering what’s going to happen for the next academic year when they have a grade 12 student who is ready to move into university. And they’re in that stage of submitting their results and acceptances. So we don’t know exactly how this will play out. But tell us what we do know at this point or what you think is going to happen or how families can prepare in this year.

Natalie: [00:44:48] This year, I think families are, in a sense, pretty helpless, but there are lessons to learn. So what is happening is that the teachers will be basically allocating a grade based on what they’ve seen the child do over the year. And in mock exams and just, you know, general performance, any coursework or that sort of thing. Where this falls down is as we know, and I’ve done it myself, is that often people improve in the run up to the exam because they’re suddenly during loads of work. You know, they’ve got the time to do the study. So unfortunately, what they what they’ve done before may not be illustrative of what they would achieve. 

Although having said that, in the UK, schools anyway have to make predicted grades. For example, because sometimes if a student was sick, this has nothing to do with coronaviruses just in general, like if you like, break your leg the day of an exam, for example. Actually, the teachers have already allocated sort of an exam grade to the exam board. You have to do this several months in advance so that if something happens, the exam board could give a grade anyway. So this whole thing has been in operation for years as it happens, just probably not widespread. It probably wasn’t known and also wasn’t used very often. And because, you know, if there’s a freak incident, it’s not whole swathes of people not doing exams.

Natalie: [00:46:22] The other thing is, is that students will be able to take exams, just next year. And the UK qualifications agency will be putting on I assume extra exams so that if you were given a grade that was not as good as you’d hoped and not reflective of what you think you could do, then you could take the exams or show everyone. And then, you know, a year later go to university. So basically you might have to take a gap year if what you have received is not as good as you’d hoped. There’s no room for negotiation here with the school. They’re not going to be negotiating with you. So it’s not a question of, oh, just see if they can make it, get a bit higher. That’s not going to be possible. And of course, it can’t anyway, because the minute this becomes a negotiation, it just becomes a joke.

Natalie: [00:47:13] So but the moral of the story is actually you should always show your teachers what you can do throughout the year. And you should anyway, because they write you a reference for university. More of a character reference, in fact. Like, do they contribute in class? Do they do their homework? Are they prompt? Do they show interest? That’s nothing to do with the last minute exam revision. That is like how are you over the last two years? The moral of the story is, if you haven’t been working 100 percent, why haven’t you? And maybe you should think about always giving your best in a more philosophical sense, not even just like because this might happen again. But what about you know, you never know what’s going to happen.

Natalie: [00:48:04] All sorts of things might happen. You know, you might get terribly ill, in which case it’d be good if you’d have kept up with your work up to that point so you sort of weren’t behind. You know what I mean? So, like, I remember it was like three weeks before my final exams at university, I was ill, but I’d done so much work up to that point it actually didn’t matter. And the last three weeks I did nothing. So this is what I’m saying is, the the moral of the story is you just don’t know what’s around the corner. Therefore do your best all the time. Why wouldn’t you?

Kim: [00:48:39] I think that is a very sensible message. And I wonder how receptive teens are since they’re they’re getting into that stage where of invincibility, you know, the late teens to early twenties, you know, it’s a documented fact of how kids kind of perceive the world during that stage of life. And so I wonder, do you think that kids are receptive to just going ahead and working because it’s good for them?

Natalie: [00:49:12] I think, again, because this is like, children can see what’s happening now. People will remember this time. They will know that nothing is set in stone. You know, you say you’re only invincible until you realize you’re not, right? And, um, the system isn’t either. The system’s not invincible. And your parents aren’t invincible. it took me years to work out my parents were invincible. And I think once you realize that, I guess you’ve become a grown up. And I think what I’m saying is not that our children should become grownups much earlier, but just should just become a bit more realistic. 

You know, like if you think about how children I mean, this might be a ridiculous generalization, but I’m going to say anyway, you know, like children in Third World countries may well value education more because it’s not really readily available. Where, you know, I don’t think you’ll get sort of the type of behavior problems that we have in this country because people don’t care about it. We don’t care about it because it’s on tap. But as soon as it’s not on tap, it suddenly becomes a scarce resource. 

So I think that the context is changing. So that invincibility might be like a product of Western affluence rather than general teenagehood. I’m sure there’s a bit of both. I’m sure it’s not either or. And I think this thing about doing your best it’s funny because I can’t remember a time when I didn’t do something to my best ability. I think there’s a whole mindset, and it’s almost like the people around you, this is why I was talking about modeling in terms of your parents and also in terms of your friends. Like, you know, I’d be mortified if I gave in something that I know had loads of mistakes and just I didn’t care about it. But here’s the funny thing, it is quicker, if you just focus for like, I’m thinking about bit of homework or something, if you did 30 minutes of proper focus and just did it, it’d be really good. If you faff around and spend four hours and you’re half watching TV and you’re half on your phone, it’ll be rubbish. It took you longer anyway.

Natalie: [00:51:37] So I just think one could think about what’s the best use of time, and. Quality of work also like why you’re doing this work. Now, I’m not saying that every single bit of work I’ve ever done, I’ve thought you know, this is stretching my mind and I’m getting more intelligence by doing it. In fact, when I used to be set work at school, that was like stupid, like coloring, I used to give my mom to do. We used to have a little joke that my mom. I Literally would like delegate it because my mom, obviously because I was small, had a bigger hand so she would be able to physically color it in much quicker than me. And also, it was a waste of time. So I literally delegated to my mom. We laugh about that now this sort of delegation. 

So, well, you know, just think: Is there merit in doing it? And if there is merit in doing it, then you’re learning from it. And look at it, look at these things in a positive way. I think also in the UK, you know, at sixth form, year 12 and 13, we’re starting A-levels. Not everyone does A-levels, but those who do do A-Levels, the children who have chosen those A-levels or BTECs They’ve chosen three of them, possibly four, It’s different for BTEC and A-Level but I’ll just remain on A-Level for a moment.

Natalie: [00:53:05] So in other words they’ve already narrowed down the subject choice to something they presumably enjoy. If you don’t enjoy your A-levels, you’ve picked the wrong ones, which is why I’d urge you to come speak to me earlier because it’s very important to enjoy your A-levels. Again, you won’t get the grades, blah blah blah. It’s the same old story. And yet people do pick the wrong A-Levels. In other words, if you’ve picked. I’m just gonna make this up as an example. But if you’ve picked economics, Spanish and maths, right, I would sincerely hope that you enjoyed those subjects. Otherwise you wouldn’t have picked them. 

They’re very specific. You know, A-levels are very specific. It’s not like you’re studying a broad curriculum anymore. So what I’m saying is, in sixth form, which is what we call our year 12 and 13 year. There’s a very limited timeframe anyways. Two years. At the beginning of that second year, you’re applying for university anyway. So the time when your teacher writes a reference, they’ve only known you a year. In other words, you’ve actually only got a year to impress your teacher, irrespective of coronavirus.

Kim: [00:54:18] Yes, that’s a good point.

Natalie: [00:54:22] the other thing about A-levels, as I mentioned a few times, about all different things, about it being cumulative. I don’t think A-levels is something you can leave to the last minute and cram. There’s just too much of it. It’s too difficult. And if you don’t get some of the earlier concepts, you’ll never get the more advanced ones. So it’s not one of those things where it pays anyway to leave things till the last minute. And I think if you’re gonna be a superstar and really do your best and get your best grades, that does involve working hard from the beginning. 

And you know what? I sound a bit sort of Puritan and Victorian, but like there’s nothing wrong with a bit of hard work. And actually people enjoy working, you know. It’s a joy to, like, really be interested in something. And we’re so lucky that, education’s on a plate for us in this country normally. We’ve got great teachers to teach us amazing concepts. You know, enjoy it. If you were born if a child was born, you know, 150 years ago, they’d be working in the factory.

Kim: [00:55:30] There’s a little bit of perspective for us.

Natalie: [00:55:33] Yeah.

Kim: [00:55:34] Yeah. Oh, good.

Kim: [00:55:49] So so this year it’s based on predicted grades. And that could be lower than your actual potential, as you said, and I know we’ve seen cases where the prediction was higher than what they ended up turning out, because for whatever reason, they got tired or burned out. Or they already had a university acceptance and thought that was good enough for a variety of reasons.

Natalie: [00:56:16] There’s going to be winners and losers. And I think the thing is, winners need to capitalize on this. And there’s going to be losers as well. So the winners are the people who, whatever reason, are going to get a more inflated grade than they probably should deserve. Whether that’s because they seem like they understood it more than they did or they did more work earlier and actually were never going to do the revision in the end but no one knew because it’s too late. Yeah. So there’s going to be winners. Good for them. You know, get to the best university you can and, you know, do the best you can. And, you know, let’s not worry about the fact that you probably would have slacked Move forward and grasp the opportunity, that little window that’s been made for you. And for the losers who actually feel a bit hard done by, they should redo their exams when it becomes available next year. And hold off potentially going to university for another year. And get some valuable work experience this year.

Kim: [00:57:17] Mm hmm. That was another thing I wanted to ask you about was the idea of work experience. Do you have any suggestions on how to be creative in that when we need to be creative, such as if we’re in a community where, for visa requirements or just simple accessibility that the options we might be interested in aren’t really options to us locally?

Natalie: [00:57:46] Yeah. I mean, Zoom has come into its own now and Skype and all the rest of it. There is no reason why you can’t do virtual work experience. So much work experience is stuff that is like attending meetings. You could go to the meeting, just join by video, you know. Pick up the phone and have a chat with someone about their job. If it’s looking through documents, they can study the documents. They can also send to encrypted. you know, a lot of firms have special software, where you can only access it and it disappears after a certain amount time anyway. I mean, there is no reason why you physically have to go to an office to do work experience. 

Someone could even set you a project to do. That’s the best type of work experience when you actually have to do something, wherever that may be. As part of this work experience where you could do it all from home anyway. That they might say go and work out, you know, go and fit in this database for me. Well, you can do that from home. No different to being sort of like a worker who works in an office. I mean, obviously, the big differences here, again, for, like medicine, you’re not going to be able to go to a hospital, do work experience. But you are going to be able to deliver food to vulnerable people. That counts. You are going to be able to pick up a phone and chat to residents of hospices or nursing homes or vulnerable people. Whatever you would do as your work experience or voluntary work in that particular case. So, yes, you can’t rush around a hospital, but there’s soft skills that are important for medicine and dentistry, et cetera. You could totally do on the phone.

Kim: [00:59:33] Yeah, these are really good ideas that would not have occurred to me. So it’s great to have somebody to bounce ideas off of.

Natalie: [00:59:41] Great.

Kim: [00:59:42] Yeah. Oh, OK. Thank you so much. I think we could talk and talk and talk. But we should wrap it up and hopefully give people just enough taste that they want to come to you.

Natalie: [00:59:56] Yeah, that sounds great.