Ep 07. Practical Tips for School Success, with Wendy Zuverink Perry

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This is the 2nd of two interviews with international school educators. If you missed the first one, tune into episode 6 with Kate O’Connell, who brings an administrative perspective that’s helpful for both parents and teachers.

Today we have Wendy Perry with us, and we really cover a lot. It’s different from – but pairs really well with – the last episode. So let’s dive in.

Kim: [00:00:00] Yea, I’m so glad to be talking with you today.

Wendy: [00:00:03] Oh, thank you. You too, Kim.

Kim: [00:00:05] One of the topics that I wanted to explore in this podcast is how families can advocate for their kids at an international school in a way that makes them good partners with the school and not a burden on the school. In addition to all the issues that come up in schools everywhere, you’ve got kids needing various kinds of support: academic, social, occupational type of support. In the international school setting, then we have a whole host of additional challenges that families come up against. And I see sometimes that parents really grapple with the trade-offs of being in an international school setting. And they’re kind of missing the things that they consider part of a normal growing up. And sometimes they kind of put that onto the school, as maybe the school should be responsible for these aspects of my child’s growing up, and my child’s education, and my child’s experience of what childhood is. And it can become a point of contention or it’s something that parents struggle with sometimes.

[00:01:17] So there are a lot of additional challenges that come up. Frequently language and curriculum are big ones, understandably so. In the city that we lived in previously, there were quite a few international schools and they were offering a variety of curriculums. And so the conversations I heard among parents as they’re trying to choose which school to put their kids in, a lot of those conversations revolved around which curriculum is going to give my kid the best chance at smooth transitions now and later.

Kim: [00:01:48] And in the community we live in now, I see it’s very common for families to be here for a year or two or maybe quite a bit longer, but they already know that they are going to be re-entering their home country’s local schooling system. And so they’ve got these very specific academic targets that they feel like they need to keep up with while they’re away. And sometimes they want the school to be able to provide all of that. It just brings a bit of struggle sometimes.

Kim: [00:02:15] So I wanted to hear from a variety of teachers about some of the things that they wish parents knew or that they wish parents had a better understanding of that might help alleviate some of these questions and struggles.

Kim: [00:02:30] All right. So today I’m speaking with Wendy Perry, who’s a very experienced international school teacher. Wendy, could you just give me a little bit of your background, maybe broadbrush or where the different places and grade levels that you’ve taught and what brought you into being a teacher and an international school teacher?

Wendy: [00:02:49] Ok, sure. Let’s see. Well, what brought me into teaching when I was in college, I was a business major and even though being a teacher had always been in the back of my mind. But I thought that to be a teacher, you had to be a really good artist because my teachers were always excellent artists and they could just draw anything. And I can’t. I still can’t.

Kim: [00:03:11] Oh, my goodness.

Wendy: [00:03:12] And I was working in the dish room at Michigan State University and talking to the person who gave me my paycheck. And he was in the teaching program. And I said, oh, I wish I would have done that. And he said, Well, why aren’t you? And I said, Well, because I can’t draw. And he said, you don’t have to know how to draw to be a teacher! I said, Really? Because all of my teachers knew how to draw beautifully! And then I changed my major and I transferred to a small school in my hometown. I student taught with my first grade teacher, who told me that the secret to drawing perfectly is to project onto the wall. And she said, I don’t know how to draw. It’s all about tracing.

Kim: [00:03:55] Oh, that’s fantastic.

Wendy: [00:03:56] So that’s where I started and student taught with her. Still called her Mrs. Marizon, even though she kept saying, call me Cathy. I said, I can’t call you Cathy.

Kim: [00:04:06] you can’t make the transition.

Wendy: [00:04:08] You can’t. And then I went into the Peace Corps and I worked in Paraguay doing community health and starting preschool programs. And then from there, I entered into a fellowship program in University of New Mexico, where I worked in border reservation schools. And I ended up living in Gallup for 15 years teaching and also in the Zuni Indian Reservation. And then I got married, had a child, and then I decided to stay home for five years with her. And it was at the time that she was around four. And my husband and I started thinking about, well we were in a transitional period. And so we decided to do some volunteer work overseas or in Costa Rica. And then from there, we decided now is the time. She’s going into kindergarten, we’ve always talked about international teaching, and let’s try it.

Wendy: [00:05:02] So we started out our first jobs internationally were in Venezuela and we were there for three years, and then we were in Brazil, and then we moved to Cameroon, and then back to Brazil. And now we are in Oman. So we’ve been at five different schools.

Wendy: [00:05:17] And I was listening to what you said about curriculum. And if you asked any of the administrators at those schools, they would all say, oh, this is our curriculum and it’s very different than this curriculum and very different from this curriculum. But really, they’re all very similar. They really are. Like expectations, in schools or in learning are very similar. First of all, what the hope is, is that they enjoy learning. Right? It doesn’t matter what the curriculum is. We hope that they enjoy learning new things.

Wendy: [00:05:48] You know, we want them to be able to read and understand and love reading. And so different curricular points or different aspects of it, they really are just bringing you to being someone who loves to read, understands what they read. Same for math. Just understanding numbers. Does it matter the curriculum? It’s all kind of leading to that same thing. And if kids understand math, it really doesn’t, it does not matter how they learned it. So if they go back into their schools, numbers don’t change. Numbers are numbers. And if they’ve learned it well, however they’ve learned it well, it will just translate or transfer right back into whatever they’re doing. Same for science, social studies. It’s more approach that’s different. Like I know people talk about curriculum all the time, like, oh, we’re using IB curriculum, but IB is more of an approach.

Kim: [00:06:39] Yeah, no, that’s true.

Wendy: [00:06:41] To delivering content, you know? Or like Common Core in the US. It’s very similar to what I see in the New Zealand curriculum. You know, it’s just repackaged. It’s not that it’s so different. And so for me, like thinking about parents and I know parents are very concerned about that.

Wendy: [00:07:01] When it comes right down to it: Does your kid like school? Are they happy at school? Did they talk about their day? Are they showing interest in new things? Have they gotten a deeper level of knowledge about something? Have they developed new interests? And are they kind kids? Are they nice? Do they get along with others? I mean, really, we can talk about curriculum. Yes. But really, what matters about the experience of school? And I know that this is kind of goes in and out of the whole child, but it really is. It’s not even like the whole child, it’s the whole person.

Kim: [00:07:31] Yes.

Wendy: [00:07:32] You know, like what kind of people do we want them to be regardless of did they use Common Core, did they use whatever IGSCE or whatever, you know? Or New Zealand. It’s what kind of people are they? And are they enjoying and learning and interested in life and experiences around them?

Kim: [00:07:49] Yes, I love that. Yeah, that’s true. And I think I tend to say IB curriculum, but what I love about it is more that it teaches kids how to ask questions.

Wendy: [00:07:59] Exactly. It’s an approach.

Kim: [00:08:01] I think that’s a best life skill is knowing how to ask the right questions.

Wendy: [00:08:05] Exactly. And being curious about things, you know, even just mentally curious about things. So IB is a great approach to the curriculum.

Kim: [00:08:15] Yeah, yeah.

Wendy: [00:08:16] This is how we learn it. We learn it by doing it. We learn it by asking questions.

Wendy: [00:08:20] Ok, now I want to backtrack to something you said about your first international school teaching experience. Did you tell me the other day that you went to Venezuela during the economic crisis?

Wendy: [00:08:32] Yes. Yes.

Kim: [00:08:34] For me, that was a hopeful thing because the whole world is in an economic crisis right now and.

Wendy: [00:08:40] Right.

Kim: [00:08:40] So I don’t know if you have anything to add on that point of things, but I just, I just wanted to touch back on that because it did make me feel a little bit better. Like, yes, a lot of places have had crises and we’ve come through it and there are jobs even in places where there are crises happening.

Wendy: [00:08:58] Right, exactly. Brazil, again, they were having the same kind of thing. And then Cameroon, they had a lot of fighting in the north with Boko Haram. We weren’t there. We were in the southern part, but. And there was also fighting because Cameroon is English speaking for a little part of it and French speaking. And so there was conflict there. And so, yeah, there’s, there’s always conflict of some sort, just the state of humans. So, yeah, yes.

Kim: [00:09:25] Yes. That ties back into something that I’ve talked about before, like my feeling about that expats are able to handle this uncertainty during the pandemic on a different level because we have lived through so many different kinds of uncertainty and had our whole world turned upside down many times. Like every time you move, you see a completely new way of life.

Wendy: [00:09:47] Right!

Kim: [00:09:48] I think that gives us a different lens.

Wendy: [00:09:50] Right, right. Yeah. And also, just getting back to the whole the idea of curriculum and learning is the ability to be adaptable. And when kids do move around and they have to they have to learn about a new school that just helps them build adaptability. And I think that that is an amazing skill. It’s so important because in uncertain times like this, to look at something and say, OK, we’ve done this before, or we can connect this to other experiences we’ve had. So being adaptable is important.

Kim: [00:10:22] Yeah.

Wendy: [00:10:23] Up there with being kind.

Kim: [00:10:26] One of the things I wanted to ask you about was what are some things that you wish parents knew? Or having good or realistic or appropriate expectations for what teachers want from their students and what teachers want from their parents?

Wendy: [00:10:43] Right. Oh, gosh.

Kim: [00:10:44] So just anything that comes to mind.

Wendy: [00:10:47] Right. I think it is important for parents to ask questions about what’s happening at the school, what’s happening in the classroom, because it’s important that they understand. Because a lot of times, you know, kids go home, something bad happened and they tell their parents. And then if the parent has not spoken to the teacher, just in general gotten a sense of the school or of the classroom, then that can bring about a reaction in the parent. You know what I mean? So I think it’s really important that the parents do get to know the teachers and get to know the school so that they can have context to what their kids are telling them.

Wendy: [00:11:21] I think that it is important to talk to teachers about things in some schools are very open to that. And I know that in every international school that’s not possible. Every school I’ve worked in, it has been. There’s been a ton of access of parents to teachers. And so that’s what I am used to. I mean, that’s been my experience everywhere.

Kim: [00:11:41] Yeah, it’s true that there are a lot of different, it’s really hard to paint international schools with a broad brush because there are so many different circumstances.

Wendy: [00:11:49] Exactly. Right. Right. And also don’t focus so much on the curriculum, but more on those things that I talked about before, like.

Kim: [00:11:58] Relationship.

Wendy: [00:11:59] Do your kids seem happy?

Kim: [00:12:01] Yeah.

Wendy: [00:12:01] Yeah. Building relationships. Are they happy? That is a big indicator about school. Like, how does your child feel now? They might not be happy at every moment in every age is not. I mean, I’m thinking of eight year olds, seven, eight, nine year olds.

Kim: [00:12:16] They’re pretty happy.

Wendy: [00:12:17] Yeah. You know, and so don’t worry so much about the curricular aspect, but just how your kid, your child is interested and involved and they want to go to school. When they are like, oh, I don’t want to go to school today. And this happens over and over, make sure that you coming in to find out and talk to the teacher. And not in an accusatory way, but in a Let’s let’s understand together your child.

Wendy: [00:12:41] For me, I really like hearing parents’ perspectives of kids. Because a lot of parents will say, oh, my child never does this at home. Well, it’s a very different situation. And I think that’s something that all people need to understand about humans. You act differently in different situations. Your home is very different than having to be in a group of 13 other peers. And it could be a bigger class or smaller class, but it’s a different experience and kids act differently in different experiences. That’s one of the things that I really hear from parents a lot. Just in my entire teaching career, not just international. Well they never do that at home! Well, yeah, they don’t have that experience at home either. It’s just different. You know, kids act differently in different places. And so it’s a real coming together of understanding the child. How they are at home, how they are at school, how do we help and support.

Kim: [00:13:35] And it goes both ways, too, because this reminds me of a time when one of my daughters was in preschool and had this fabulous relationship with her preschool teacher. And she’s a kind of a model student sort of student. And we were out socially doing something one day and my daughter got into a mood and just refused to speak, refused to participate, just kind of giving the cold shoulder to everyone. And her teacher said, oh, well, maybe I can go in, I’ll try and see what what I can do. And I said, well, you can try, but I’ve seen this. This is typical and this is how I expect it to play out. So she went over and she tried and she got she got zero response. And she was, I’ve never seen this side of her before. This doesn’t happen at school. You know, like, yeah, this is pretty this is the usual thing that happens at home. So, yeah, it goes both ways. Every instance of it does and doesn’t happen on one side or the other.

Wendy: [00:14:33] Right. Right. You know, and then that’s an interesting thing, too, because usually in your home country, you don’t see the teachers out socially.

Kim: [00:14:43] Yes. Yes.

Wendy: [00:14:44] You don’t see the parents out socially. And so, you know, that’s another aspect to manage. And also kids, I remember one time when I was a fifth grader, so I was ten. And I was in the grocery store and I saw my fifth grade teacher at the grocery store and I was 10. Usually kids have a sense of their teachers not living at school. I did not. I still thought she did live school, at 10.

Kim: [00:15:09] No, no, no, no. I don’t think I understood that until I was much older. And the only reason I did understand that is because my father became a teacher. I had him as a teacher when I was in high school. And prior to that he was a substitute teacher for quite a few years. And so I was beginning to understand that my teachers were people.

Wendy: [00:15:30] Right! Right.

Kim: [00:15:32] That they had a life, that they had a family, that they had a personality. But I didn’t, still didn’t fully appreciate that until I had him as my own teacher in my last one or two years of high school. And he was friends with the other teachers in the school. And I began to see them as real people.

Wendy: [00:15:50] Right. Right. Yeah. So you don’t generally see teachers outside of school, but here or in international, especially in small schools. And all of my schools have been small about the size of our school now. The kids go to parties or whatever, you know, until you see the parents and, you know, there’s a two edged sword there with parents and teachers. I mean, there can be a really positive thing. Because like you said, we’re all people and we all have experiences and we all have stories and we all have our own personalities. And what our child or what the children see is maybe different than…

Kim: [00:16:25] Multidimensional.

Wendy: [00:16:27] Yes, exactly. The kids see the one dimension, or two or three, and parents can get to know their kids teachers as people. And that can break down barriers, which is great because there can be a real barrier between parents and teachers. And it doesn’t need to be that way. You know, if we’re all like we want to support the child, we all want to work together to support the child. And I know not all schools are conducive to that because of either they’re huge schools, or time, or whatever. But in a smaller school, it’s certainly possible and should be the norm as long as there’s respect and consideration and that kind of relationship being formed. Now, I’ve also had the flip side.

Kim: [00:17:10] Yeah, right. What’s the other side of a two edged sword there?

Wendy: [00:17:13] Yeah. Where like I’ve been at a gathering or something and parents have come up to me and like, why isn’t my child doing this? And da da da, and this is a Friday night. And I’m like, probably have a glass of wine or you know. And it’s like, oh can we have a meeting at school and talk about this or? And then “No, no, we cannot. We will talk about it right now.” And so there’s that too. And that’s never appropriate, I don’t think.

Wendy: [00:17:37] Just like I would hopefully, although I’m sure I have you know, we’re all guilty of this – but, you know, talking about kids. But I’d never in a negative way. Like, let’s talk about a problem we’re having. I know we’re having dinner, but, you know, but.

Wendy: [00:17:51] I like to tell parents, oh, I love working with your child or whatever. As a mother, I love hearing about how great my child is. And everyone likes to hear that. At a party even. But it’s a balance. And it’s hard because, you know, a thought comes and you want to talk about it.

Kim: [00:18:06] And, yeah, especially when you don’t really have the opportunity on a daily basis to pop in or. Or to try to make a meeting at school is a big deal, to get off work early or to rearrange your schedule. And so just to take advantage. Oh, I just have a small question, but.

Wendy: [00:18:22] Right, right, right. There’s no such thing as a small question when you’re talking about your child. Yeah.

Wendy: [00:18:31] Something else: Parents can support their child by making sure that they are well rested, making sure that they are having a healthy lifestyle, eating well, healthy, coming to school prepared. And I think that that helps more than anything for a teacher. For a child to come to school ready for school. It’s when kids come in like they don’t have whatever they needed and they don’t have their water bottle or they don’t have their hat or they don’t have whatever it is, they needed. And then it just sets things off for the day, you know.

Wendy: [00:19:05] So anything that, any routine to have in the mornings to allow your child the best opportunity to start school on a positive note. I mean, really, that is the main thing that I ask. Have your child come in ready, whatever that means to you or to your child or. Of course, things happen that get in the way of that. But if there’s a routine for kids to follow.

Kim: [00:19:33] So I have a question now, this probably is not as relevant for you because you tend to teach the younger grades and you don’t give a lot of homework in those grades. But for an older student, sometimes we run into the question of which is more important: To stay up and finish your homework that’s due tomorrow, or go to bed so that you’re well rested for school? And sometimes we have to choose between the two.

Wendy: [00:19:57] Yes. Yes, well. I have a child who is in high school, and this is what I tell her 100% of the time: go to bed. I tell her that every time. Now she is very much not that way. You know, I’ve got to finish this. I’m like, no, you don’t. You need to sleep. Because ultimately, what is better for you: answering that one question? No. Your rest is more important. If you look at all the sleep research that’s coming out and how important sleep is.

Kim: [00:20:24] Yes. Oh, my goodness, yes.

Wendy: [00:20:27] Especially for a teenager, but for all of us. Is it going to matter in five years down the road? Is that question going to matter? No. Is a bad sleep pattern going to matter? Yes. So that’s how I weigh them. And that’s as a parent. But believe me, we go through this almost every single day. But I think that sleep is super important. And I know that, and this has been in every country that I’ve taught in, that going to bed late is a part of the culture of the country. We eat late, kids go to bed at 11, 12, little kids, all kids, it’s just like a thing. But that doesn’t mean that school is not starting at 7:30 or 7:45 and kids are getting up at six. So we see a lot of sleep deprived.

Wendy: [00:21:11] And then that brings about behavior. You don’t behave well when you’re tired. Nobody does. Kids, adults, teenagers.

Kim: [00:21:18] That’s true.

Wendy: [00:21:19] If you’re not well rested, it comes out in all kinds of places, in more places than not having those questions done in your homework is going to come out. I mean, that affects groups. It affects relationships. And so I think sleep super important.

Kim: [00:21:34] Yeah. Thank you for that. No it’s good. I think it’s helpful.

Wendy: [00:21:40] And I know you talked about homework and I don’t assign homework no matter what grade I’ve taught. I have had parents who demand homework and I feel like kid works hard at school. Or they should be working hard. And if they’re not working hard – and I don’t mean like sitting down doing paper pencil, that’s not what I mean. But if they’re not at school engaged, – that’s what I mean by working hard, engaged in what we’re doing, then I’m not doing my job. I try to provide a full and enriching and engaging day so that when they go home, hopefully they have some of that learning in the backs of their minds. Right? And so they’re maybe thinking about it or maybe talking about it when they get home and then they have time to do their other stuff.

Wendy: [00:22:23] Because a kid’s life can be very scheduled. And there’s a lot of research and stories about kids just being scheduled all the time. And they really need time to think about even if they’re not actively thinking about things, it’s still. They’re making connections by what they’ve done. And it might not even be that day, maybe a couple days before, a week before to other aspects of their life. And to me, that’s learning, right there: Making those connections and then using that information.

Wendy: [00:22:53] Way more than sitting down and reading something and answering questions. And I don’t think that’s a good use of anybody’s time. Nobody wants to do that. I don’t want to do that. And I would not want to ask a kid to do something that I myself don’t want to do. Now, maybe there are people who love that kind of stuff in their life. “But I love it, so my kids should love it, you know?” But I think that life is for living, playing. And there’s so much research about the importance of play and discovering things yourself. And that’s my feeling about that. And I feel that way for all ages.

Kim: [00:23:27] That was going to be my question was what grades? Because what grades have you taught? You’ve taught basically all the way up to fourth.

Wendy: [00:23:35] And then I did a middle school ESL in my first year of overseas teaching, and I never did homework with them. Some kids, they love homework and they’ll do homework. And, you know, for those kids, I might give them something that I, that I hope is somewhat useful or engaging. But otherwise it turns into a big fight because half the kids don’t do homework, won’t do homework. And then you’ve got this whole other dynamic between teachers and students. People say, oh, it’s a responsibility thing. But there are so many more responsibility tasks that kids could be doing to help them be more independent. I mean, tying their shoes, you know, that kind of stuff, helping with the dishes, doing little jobs around the house, reading to someone. These are the kinds of things that are building skills in a different way than traditional. And that’s what parents think of the traditional homework, like where’s their homework, where’s their reading log? Where’s their…. And the kids who are going to do homework are the ones who don’t need it. And the kids who don’t are the kids who probably could use it, do you know what I mean?

Kim: [00:24:37] Yeah, that is definitely one of the struggles that I see a lot as I hear parents talking about what they expect the school to provide versus what they think the school is providing. Because most of us, our frame of reference is how we grew up, how we went to school, how we learned. And most of us had much more of rote learning. Copy, copy, copy type of learning. Lots of writing, lots of sitting with your books, so that can be a really disconcerting thing for parents to try to accept that their kids are still learning, even if they’re not doing it the same way that they did when they went to school.

Wendy: [00:25:16] Right.

Kim: [00:25:16] And so sometimes I think that that conflict is kind of about, it’s not necessarily even educational philosophy or what’s really best for the kids. It’s more about the parents having: This is my understanding of what childhood is. This is my understanding of what schooling is. And it’s different and I can’t I can’t make sense of it in my mind.

Wendy: [00:25:38] Exactly. It’s the same for teachers. Teachers tend to go back and teach the way that they were taught. And if this happens for generation upon generation of teacher, it’s going to happen generation upon generation for parents. Because they keep seeing the same thing, because it just gets passed down with teachers. And then no matter how the parent is, they’ve experienced the same kind of thing.

Wendy: [00:26:00] So if you were talking to a different teacher who loves homework, you will have totally different answers from me.

Kim: [00:26:07] Yeah, that’s true.

Wendy: [00:26:08] And I never had homework. I think I didn’t have homework until. I had a little bit like in high school. I went to a traditional public school and I never had homework in elementary school ever. My homework was going to the library on Saturdays with my mom and getting a stack of books and coming home and reading them. Or my mom reading to me. Which is another thing that parents can do, is read to their child every day in their home language. That to me is like the biggest, The biggest thing that parents could do to help their kid out.

Kim: [00:26:40] So. So you want them to read in their mother tongue?

Wendy: [00:26:43] I think so, yeah. I think that is the best because the kids needs to be strong in their mother tongue and especially if they’re trying to learn English. It’s really important that they are strong in their first language. It’s very important. All the research shows that kids need to be strong in their home language before they can be strong in another language. Truly strong. I mean, academically. Now, that is not every single kid. Of course, I had kids this year who two years ago, they weren’t speaking English. And I’ve never seen I mean, and it just depends also on the child themselves. Like, are they interested? Are they motivated or do they really want to learn the language? Things come easily to them. You know, there’s lots of things. Are they interested in lots of things? There’s other aspects of that. But it’s important that they can speak and hear and understand in their own language.

Wendy: [00:27:32] And also, I don’t expect parents to teach their kids English. That’s another conversation I’ve had with parents, parents whose English is a second or third language. And then they’re like, but I can’t read to them. But you don’t have to read to them in English. You can read to them in your home language. And then, but there’s no books. But there are books online. I know there are. You can get books and all kinds of languages online. I know it can be a struggle. I know it’s hard to find things, but even talking in their home language and asking questions about things or even. And it doesn’t even have to be books, maybe there’s a news article or something that comes out of your home country you’re talking about, or magazine or, you know, just different things. It doesn’t have to be a storybook. Kids are actually quite capable of speaking about things that are above their reading level.

Wendy: [00:28:24] And especially kids who have traveled around a lot. They have a lot of knowledge about things that people don’t tap into. I’m amazed by what kids have experienced and can talk about. And they can connect those to other things and other experiences that they’re having. So if you don’t have a book, at least make sure you’re talking to your child in your home language. Because that doesn’t always happen.

Kim: [00:28:47] Is there a difference between the language you use for communicating verbally and the language that they need to be able to support them academically as they grow?

Wendy: [00:28:58] You mean in English or in any language?

Kim: [00:29:00] In both. In both.

Wendy: [00:29:02] In both. Well, there is, because, you know, there’s like the conversational. Hi, how are you? Let’s play. That kind of language. And then there’s more sophisticated language that centers around content. Different like there’s scientific words and there’s mathematical words. But then there’s a whole tier of words that connect across also. And so I just think that exposing kids to as much vocabulary as possible in whatever language will help them academically and conversationally. There are tier 1 words, tier 2 words, tier 3 words, and people focus on the tier 1 and the tier 3. Tier 1 is like your basic, and tier 3 are your content words. All those words that the kids will have to know for one unit.

Kim: [00:29:49] Technical terms.

Wendy: [00:29:49] One math thing, one science thing. One. And then the tier two words are all those words that connect. And those are all these words that everyone assumes that kids understand and they don’t. Like in directions. Words in directions. And review. Words like review, words like among, other words, like some prepositions. But there’s a whole, and that’s where the bulk of teaching needs to really happen. And it doesn’t.

Kim: [00:30:19] What can you say about the dynamics that are unique – I think they’re unique in the international school system – where, in the schools that we’ve been in and in many schools, you have a population of foreigners or expats or non locals. And usually there’s also a significant population of local students who have come in to learn English and participate in this different schooling system. What have you observed and what are your thoughts about the ways that these groups interact? Sometimes it’s wonderful and sometimes there can be challenges to try to really integrate these groups together.

Wendy: [00:30:56] Right, right. Yes. In all of the schools that I’ve taught in there has been a significant local or country national population. Because of the economic crisis that we talked about earlier. So a large percentage of kids from the country are there. A lot of times the kids are there because, oh, it’s the best school, or the most expensive school, or whatever. And then you’ve got some expat kids who are there because that’s their only option. So right there already creates a barrier.

Wendy: [00:31:23] And so I think that it is a responsibility of the school to build community with the knowledge of those two dynamics. A lot of people, they don’t want to talk about those dynamics, but they’re there and they’re real. And then you think about like, OK, how can families break down those barriers? And there are ways, like playdates. And this is what I’ve seen at every school too. The kids play with the same kids. There’s just like a few kids that they play with. Then they’re in class with them and then they fight and they don’t. Because they haven’t played with other kids and they’ve really gotten comfortable with just a few kids.

Wendy: [00:31:58] They don’t go outside of their their group. And if parents can help cultivate that a bit, like playdates with the local kids. Or the biggest thing is the birthday parties. And I have noticed this at every school. The kid will come to school with their, even though it’s a rule, if you’re going to have a birthday party and you’re going to have invitations at school, everyone needs to be invited. Even though you’ve said that, made that a rule, and they’ll just pass them out to their friends.

Wendy: [00:32:26] And it’s always the same group of kids. And this happens everywhere. Or if they don’t do that, they’ll do it in a different way, like maybe it goes on a WhatsApp group or something like that. But then the kids come back to school and they’re all talking about someone’s birthday party and how wonderful it was. And, oh, I got this as a party gift or whatever. And then you’ve got these two local kids in the class who were not even invited.

Wendy: [00:32:50] And this happens everywhere. And that, again, that just keeps that division growing. And that’s not what we want for our kids. We talk in international schools: Oh, we’re international minded. This is what we do. We want our kids in this environment. But but we’re not going to incorporate it fully. We’re going to stop just where it becomes social. And cultures are different. But kids are kids and they feel left out. It doesn’t matter what culture you’re from, you still feel bad, you still feel left out. And I just think it’s a really important dynamic that we can acknowledge.

Wendy: [00:33:26] But kids, they take their cues from adults. They really do. They see their parents only with these people over here and not these people over here. And then they see their kids. And my mom doesn’t talk to their mom. So I don’t. Even know they’re not registering that, and they’re not, like, consciously thinking that, it’s still there. It’s what they see.

Wendy: [00:33:46] And so I think that in international school, or schools in general, it’s important that kids have the opportunity to play with, interact, socialize with kids of different cultures. I mean, that’s a big part of being overseas.

Wendy: [00:34:03] And again, I know not everyone has a choice of what school they will go to or where their spouse is placed to work. Maybe they didn’t choose the country they’re living in. But you’re here. It’s so important, I think, for kids just to get a different perspective about things. And kids are kids. They really are. They all like to play. Doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter. Kids all like to play.

Wendy: [00:34:26] And kids like other kids more than other kids. That’s just human nature also. I always say you don’t have to like everybody, but you better be nice to everybody. It’s important to be able to get along with people and appreciate people and realize that everyone has interesting aspects about them. And the more you talk to people, the better you get to know them and discover those things about them. And that’s just something that I have seen that is heartbreaking as a teacher to witness. And I’ve witnessed that at every single school, every grade.

Kim: [00:34:58] I could definitely grow in that area. And it’s something that I’ve recently become acutely aware of, the fact that I have used as an excuse for myself: Well, there’s a language barrier. And so I allow that to keep me from reaching across to places where maybe I have the friendly feeling, but I don’t act on it, because, oh, there’s this language barrier and Oh, it’s difficult. And so I have allowed that to get in the way more than I should have. And yeah, my kids see it. And then the thing about being a parent and the birthday parties, Ah, that’s really hard. Just as an introvert, I also let that be part of my excuse, too, because large groups are really uncomfortable for me.

Wendy: [00:35:41] Me too. I’m an introverted, extrovert, extroverted introvert. Anyway, I’m the same way and I have struggled with these same kinds of things. So I understand.

Kim: [00:35:53] Are there any things parents do that make you nervous?

Wendy: [00:36:00] There’s two things. One, I already talked about, how, “Well my child never does this at home So it’s impossible that they would do this at school.” And: my child doesn’t lie to me.

Kim: [00:36:08] Oh!

Wendy: [00:36:10] This is the first skill that a child learns. It’s the first thing kids learn how to do is how to lie. Nobody wants to get in trouble. So those kinds of things and I once heard, someone relayed this quote from their old administrator. And to me, this is one of the most significant things I’ve ever heard and never thought of:

Wendy: [00:36:31] You know your own child, but we know kids.

Wendy: [00:36:36] That is true. I mean, parents do. I mean, I know my daughter really well, but her teachers know her in a different way.

Kim: [00:36:43] Yes.

Wendy: [00:36:44] Nobody knows. All aspects of a person and the child that I see at school is not the child you see at home. You know, like we talked about earlier, different experiences, different people, different interactions. I interact with your child in a very different way than you interact. Sometimes I can get them to do things that, just like you were saying earlier, to with your story.

Kim: [00:37:05] Oh, not sometimes, like all the time.

Wendy: [00:37:10] I think it’s just knowing that teachers have seen a lot of kids. And even though every kid is an individual, there are certainly patterns, just like there are patterns with humans, all humans.

Kim: [00:37:22] I was going to say, your kid is special, but they’re not that special.

Wendy: [00:37:25] Right.

Kim: [00:37:26] But you said it much more nicely.

Wendy: [00:37:29] Well, that administrators said it so nicely. “You know your kid, but we know kids.” It’s what we do.

Kim: [00:37:35] Yeah, no, I definitely see that with my husband. He spends all day, every day with teenagers.

Wendy: [00:37:41] Right.

Kim: [00:37:42] And so I have felt so thankful that he knows teenagers because that has helped us in preparing and entering into that teenage stage. And he is like, yes, this is normal. Yep, this is what kids do. Yep, this is totally fine, and you’re going to be fine and we’re all going to be fine and. Or on the other side of it, like, we really need to watch out for this because this is how things go. This is the pattern.

Wendy: [00:38:08] Right.

Kim: [00:38:08] Not saying that you’re going to do that, but we need to be aware and be proactive.

Wendy: [00:38:12] Exactly. Exactly. Yes, because there are patterns. There are patterns of behavior.

Kim: [00:38:17] And developmental stages.

Wendy: [00:38:18] Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, as a parent, you don’t necessarily notice all of these things because you’re with your child all the time. And you don’t notice when they suddenly change.

Kim: [00:38:30] No, not at all.

Wendy: [00:38:31] I mean, I have this theory about seven to eight year olds. There is something that happens. And I’m sure I read this somewhere and I don’t think it comes from me, but I’ve really noticed it, especially this year, because I hadn’t thought in second grade in a long time. But that’s the year when kids turn from seven to eight. But there really is a different kind of switch that goes on in a kid’s brain when they turn eight. Not For everyone and not at every. But in general, you see a real maturity start.

Wendy: [00:38:57] And oh, this is something very interesting also that I learned from a principal that I was interviewing with. And I’ve thought about this over the years. And just recently I read research about this, and it is this: And this is something important for parents too. OK, so this is what the principal told me. I hire a certain kind of a teacher for kindergarten, second and fourth, then I hire for first, third, and fifth. And I was like, gosh, which was it again? Because one is the more academic. Like these are the years when we really load kids up. Kindergarten, second and fourth were the more like, this is when we take that learning and we we develop that learning.

Kim: [00:39:40] Social.

Wendy: [00:39:41] Yes, but I’m not like giving you a whole bunch of new stuff every day. Like in first where suddenly here’s five hundred sight words that you need to learn. And all these math facts that you need to know. And you know? And so and then the same in third. Because, boy, the difference between second and third is very different. And I’ve taught both grades, but I hadn’t thought of it that way. But that’s something for parents to think about. The kindergarten year is a certain kind of year. And first grade is very academic. Even though you’re like they’re six (although some parents are like they’re already six), you know. And then second grade is putting those things together. And then third grade. Oh, my gosh. Now here we go with fractions and multiplication, with the carrying. And even though I did a little bit of that in 2nd, because they were developmentally ready for it and we see it in the world around us. But third grade is like Bam and in fifth grade. So there are different kinds of pushes or nudges as the 2020 word is.

Kim: [00:40:38] Yeah.

Wendy: [00:40:38] There are different aspects that are developed in the kids, either consciously or not, because that’s probably not something that all teachers think. Because everyone is thinking about, Oh they need to know all of this this year. And some kids will and some kids won’t. But that doesn’t mean that they won’t be successful.

Wendy: [00:40:55] And that’s another thing for parents too: failure is fine. Failure is a part of life. And so those kids who are never allowed to fail, that sets them up for failure later.

Kim: [00:41:05] Say more about that. What do you mean by fail? In what way?

Wendy: [00:41:09] Well, you know, kids who don’t learn something on the very first time it’s taught or they are trying to figure something out and they keep getting it wrong and, “Oh, why can’t you get that right?” And it’s like, no, let’s talk about what’s going on here. Science is like a perfect example. Or learning to ride a bike. Or not always getting a perfect grade or.

Wendy: [00:41:29] I mean, we don’t always do our best. We want to do our best, but we fail. But if a parent is there and they think, oh, the teacher wants to see this perfect thing, so just step in and do it for them. Rather than them not doing it perfectly the first time or whenever they have to turn it in or whatever. It can be small failures, it can be big failures. Nobody wants to see their kid fail. I am… hah, I understand that completely. I really do. This is me talking theoretically.

Kim: [00:41:58] Oh, ok. OK.

Wendy: [00:41:59] I know that you don’t want your kid to ever feel sad, or bad, or fail. You don’t want that for your child. But it really helps them later on. All the research shows that there are books written about that. There’s a great book right now. Well, it came out a couple of years ago called Grit, and how you really have to build up and persevere on your own. And that’s how you learn. You don’t learn by your parents doing your work.

Wendy: [00:42:23] And here’s something else for parents to know. The teacher always knows when you do their work for them.

Kim: [00:42:30] So should the teacher turn turn it back and say, no, do it again?

Wendy: [00:42:33] No, because I would never accuse a parent of that. But just so they know. We know.

Kim: [00:42:40] Do you like the word failure or would you put a different word in there to get across this concept, where we have that misconception about failure.

Wendy: [00:42:49] Oh, so what I what I talked about, we learn from our mistakes. Mistakes make us smarter, mistakes help us, those kinds of things. So, no, I don’t use the word failure with them. I don’t like that word failure. But that’s what parents know. That’s the word they know. I think it was one of our essential agreements this year was mistakes help us learn because they do. Your brain grows when you figure something out. Just knowing it by rote, that’s not. It’s good to know math facts fast. I mean, then you can move on to other things. But I still count on my fingers.

Kim: [00:43:23] This is something that I’m only coming to appreciate as an adult. I went through the American schooling system where there is one right answer, and throughout my schooling years I pretty much always got the one right answer. It came relatively easily, but I didn’t integrate the knowledge.

Wendy: [00:43:41] Right.

Kim: [00:43:41] So I could, I could take the test really well and score a great score. But that doesn’t mean that I really understood and made the connections between this knowledge and that knowledge and put them together and built something with it.

Wendy: [00:43:55] Right.

Kim: [00:43:55] And it was just a couple of days ago I was taking a quiz. I’m taking this course online. And I had gone through the modules and then at the end of the series of lessons was a little quiz. And I got about, about half of them I got wrong. And it was the first time in my life that I honestly felt that I learned more because I failed the quiz.

Wendy: [00:44:18] Exactly.

Kim: [00:44:19] That I appreciated the learning that was happening because I failed the quiz. Whereas my normal reaction and my lifelong reaction is, oh, my gosh, I didn’t get it right. What’s wrong with me?

Wendy: [00:44:29] I’m a failure. I’m a failure. Right, exactly. Exactly. And we still are learning about these things as adults. I mean, we still are integrating what we learned as children and the ways that we learned as children. We still have these constructs, I guess, of like what’s right and what’s wrong. But we’re still learning. I know that, like, schools say, oh, we want to develop lifelong learners. And we really do want that. Because you were reflective about that and able to, like, not just go, oh, I am terrible, I’m so dumb or whatever, but you really were able to integrate that and go, oh, I really have learned so much from this.

Wendy: [00:45:08] I was very good, a good student also. And it wasn’t until I was in college math for elementary teachers that I learned what two times three means. I never knew that it meant two groups of three objects. I never knew that in my whole life until I was like twenty one or whatever, because it was just rote memorization. I never visualized it ever. And I can remember looking at my teacher and going, that’s what that means. And she was just like, How old are you? But I just learned that because I had a teacher who said I had to know it by tomorrow. So I did.

Kim: [00:45:45] What else do you do for fun or for interest?

Wendy: [00:45:49] Oh, my goodness, what do I do? Oh, no.

Kim: [00:45:53] Or what? What are you interested in?

Wendy: [00:45:55] What am I interested in?

Kim: [00:45:56] Your hobbies?

Wendy: [00:45:57] What are my hobbies? Oh, my gosh. I feel like I have this summer had this transformative summer, really. I feel like a different person from starting to end. I started playing the piano, so it’s just been so fun. It makes me so happy. I’ve started meditating more. I’ve started walking every day, trying to be active in exercising. I’ve always exercised a lot, but I’ve tried to the walking has been really great. I love to hike and I love to snorkel. And I love to ski. I love to be outdoors and I love to read. And what else have I been doing?

Wendy: [00:46:34] I really love to learn about learning. I spent a lot of time this summer. I’ve done a happiness course. I did a course on Harriet Tubman. I learned how to make slides differently yesterday on Google slides. You know, I’m just trying to learn what’s out there. There’s always new things to learn, always new books to read. But I really love to ski and I’m living in the wrong place to do that.

Kim: [00:47:00] That is true.

Wendy: [00:47:02] I really do. I feel like I am a different person at the end of the summer than I was at the beginning of the summer.

Kim: [00:47:08] Nice.

Wendy: [00:47:09] And I hope it comes through in my teaching and my interactions with people and all that.

Kim: [00:47:14] Have there been struggles that you would like to talk about with distance learning and things that you’ve observed or have or have learned from other teachers who are also distance learning all around the world? About how parents can best support their kids in that environment, which is a radically different kind of way of interacting? It creates a different dynamic between parents and students.

Wendy: [00:47:37] Right.

Kim: [00:47:37] And a new dynamic between teachers and students.

Wendy: [00:47:41] Yeah.

Kim: [00:47:41] Anything you would like to talk about around that?

Wendy: [00:47:44] You know, that should be a super easy question. And it’s really not.

Kim: [00:47:48] I don’t think so.

Wendy: [00:47:49] It’s a hard question. I mean, it should be easy because, I mean, we did it for so long. These are some thoughts I have on it. And in some of the things that I try to tell the parents from the beginning, I try to change the narrative a bit. And that is that this is an incredible gift of time that you will never have with your child again. And I know it’s hard, like if you have two kids, three kids, different ages, and everyone needs their tech. Those are the kinds of challenges that I can’t solve. Teachers can’t solve those kinds of things. But think about, this is a time when you, you’re, now you’re sort of seeing your child as they are in school.

Wendy: [00:48:25] You’re seeing your kids in a different light. And so you’re getting another better picture or a different picture of your child. And really, I mean, childhood goes so fast. It really does. And so think of it as a gift. And when I’m thinking about, like starting the school year and I don’t know how our year is going to be, I mean, it’s just a few weeks away, but we still don’t know. But one thing that I think is really important is helping parents first with the technology and expectations.

Wendy: [00:48:54] I talked to my administrator about that because we were all thrown into it. I mean, everyone around the world, it was just like, OK, tomorrow or Monday, or Sunday, you start in this brand new thing. And no one had an opportunity to prepare anybody. Parents didn’t have the opportunity to get trained or anything. But I think it’s really important since we’re starting fresh, starting new teachers, take the time with the parents to really say, OK, these are the expectations. It’s different than when they’re in school. And this is how you use some of this stuff.

Wendy: [00:49:29] And also, I think that for teachers to try to think of it from the perspective of parents, I know a lot of platforms we use, especially for secondary, one teacher’s doing this, one teacher’s doing this. And it was confusing for kids and parents. And to kind of streamline things. And I don’t know if that’s a reality or not, but I think it would be an important thing to consider. Because you want everyone to be successful in this situation. Because it’s hard and it’s different and it’s not the way they were taught.

Wendy: [00:49:58] And even like the kinds of things that I did with the kids, I realized that it’s a platform that kids could become very disengaged in. I will continue this year to keep things engaging and interesting, because when they’re home, they have a lot of competing interests. Their toys, which are great. They have their siblings, they have TV or movies or whatever. So there’s lots of things going on. Kids have to to be presented with choices that they will want to choose, you know what I mean?

Kim: [00:50:28] Mmmm, yes.

Wendy: [00:50:28] Trying to do the same old, same old that you could, you can have a different… not control, that’s a bad word, but… that’s not the same when they’re at home. So I’m hoping that I can offer rich experiences for the kids at home and also educate the parents.

Wendy: [00:50:45] I spent days with some parents and we would like there were things that I couldn’t I didn’t know what the kids were seeing, like what are you seeing? And I had parents taking pictures and trying to figure things out together. And I think it’s really important also, even though you’re distancing, don’t have a constant access to the teacher. You do in a way. But I think it’s important to build a relationship with the parents from the beginning. Because they are a big part of it.

Wendy: [00:51:11] I didn’t have to be involved with my daughter’s stuff at all. She’s 15. I mean, if she needed something, she’d come out and ask, but I didn’t have to sit there with her. Also, there was a wide range too. There were parents who sat with their kids all day long, and that didn’t have to happen either. Then that’s a part of that perfect thing. Sending emails: What do you want, what do you want Miss Wendy?

Wendy: [00:51:31] It’s like, no, no, no, no, it’s not. I don’t want anything. I want them to take this where they’re going to take it.

Kim: [00:51:40] Try something, engage with it, see where it takes you.

Wendy: [00:51:43] Yes. Yes. And somehow show me that. Either just telling me, or video or whatever. But there’s no like this is how it has to be done. And so there has to be flexibility from everyone around this, too. It’s a new thing. But a lot of learning can go on this way.

Wendy: [00:52:00] You know, in fact, when I was thinking yesterday, I was trying to imagine kids six feet apart from me. That would mean someone six feet away from me. And then there’s somebody else who’s twelve feet away from me and there’s somebody else who’s 18 feet away from.

Wendy: [00:52:14] But this way, I’m at least able to directly talk to you, and if I need to help you with something, I can help you from here.

Wendy: [00:52:21] But if I have to try to help a kid from six feet away? Obviously something new that we’ll all be trying to figure out if we’re together and we have to distance like that. But I’m just trying to think how that would work from an assisting sort of thing.

Kim: [00:52:37] Yeah.

Wendy: [00:52:38] Oh, but you have to stay over there, and. Do you know what I mean.

Kim: [00:52:41] Yeah, it’s it’s like two different, very difficult scenarios. So you have the one where you have the tech glitches which makes asking questions and receiving the answer. Sometimes there’s a delay, sometimes there’s a glitch and all that gets in the way.

Wendy: [00:52:57] Right.

Kim: [00:52:58] And so sometimes we were thinking it’s so much harder because if you’re in person, then you ask a question, you get answered immediately and everybody hears at the same time.

Wendy: [00:53:07] Right. That’s true.

Kim: [00:53:07] There’s all this clarification that happens very well.

Wendy: [00:53:10] Right. Yeah. Sometimes….

Kim: [00:53:15] Yes. It’s not perfect, but.

Wendy: [00:53:16] Yeah, right. But no, it’s but it’s true. I hadn’t even I hadn’t thought of that. I was thinking more like the one on one. When a kid needs help I go to the board and do it here and then they’re 6 feet, you know. But I couldn’t imagine online learning either, so. And that all happened for three months. But just trying to imagine a scenario where kids are trying to stay away from each other, I don’t know. It would be like a universe out there. They’re islands floating or something.

Kim: [00:53:44] It’s the solar system. You could do a huge study on the solar system because clearly you’re the sun.

Wendy: [00:53:49] A solar system, you’re all your own planet and you’re orbiting me all day long. And you come this way now, like. I don’t know, we’ll see. It will happen. Whatever it is, it will happen and we’ll adjust.

Wendy: [00:54:03] And maybe this will be the time when grades kind of go, and the homework goes, you know, and. Because now people are going to have to adapt to something completely different. So maybe this will be the point where some of these things that we talked about won’t be issues anymore because it’s just all going to change. It’s not going to be like when we were growing up or the way we taught, the way our teachers taught.

Kim: [00:54:27] Yeah.

Wendy: [00:54:28] Everything I’ve said could be totally obsolete in twenty four hours Kim.

Kim: [00:54:33] I know!

Wendy: [00:54:33] It won’t even matter. There will be no more birthday parties. There will be no more play dates. Oh. Who knows. I’m glad I’m not an administrator right now. I’m so glad. And I know the administrators, they can’t do anything. They’re all. Everyone. And this is, you know, everyone in the world is waiting to see, like, what is their higher power going to tell them to do. So.It’s just.

Wendy: [00:54:56] It’s a lot of adjustment for everyone. I think that we have to offer each other grace and compassion and flexibility. And I think that if we can all do those things, those very easy things, then we’ll all be fine.

Kim: [00:55:12] That is the perfect note to end on now. Thank you so much for this conversation today. I enjoyed it very much. And I know you had a lot of great nuggets in there, too. That is going to be helpful.

Wendy: [00:55:27] Hope you can dig them out. Mine them out.

Kim:

Yes absolutely. Right now I’m putting the transcripts into the show notes, but I will be bringing the highlights and key points into a blog post, that’ll be more streamlined and easier to read.

I’d love to hear from listeners: what struck you from these conversations and what you’d like to hear more on?

Our next episode is on sustainability. That’s a big word, and a huge topic, and much broader than most people automatically associate with the word sustainability. 

I’m recording this week with the Director of Compass Education, and it’s timed to come out prior to the re-launching of Compass Education’s online training, called “Thinking and Learning for a Sustainable World” – a systems thinking approach to global citizenship.

That course starts September 21. So if you’re a teacher or know an educator who might be interested, be sure to tune in next time and look for Compass Education’s announcement so you can register.