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As you know if you’ve been listening to the latest episodes, I – along with 4 colleagues in the Expat Coach Coalition – am getting ready to start a group program called adapt.succeed.together. It’s a 12 week group program that delves into the core issues expats face, and we’re looking at the underlying issues, mindsets and ways we approach life, and learning strategies – really practical strategies – to get through the hard bits easier and faster, so you can focus your energy on the life you came to live – not be weighed down by the worries and stresses and complications of expat life – but do what you came to do, whatever that may be.

In this group program, Everyone will be going through the same materials and modules, but we will help you apply it to your particular circumstances. So we have 5 facilitators, each leading our own groups, with a special focus or special area of interest.

My focus area is international schools families and teachers: People who are raising or working with Third Culture Kids, especially in an international school context.

In episode 14 we heard from Jane, whose focus area is menopausal expats. In episode 16 we heard from Andrea, whose focus area is repats, those who’ve repatriated. In episode 18 we talked with Anna, whose focus area is parents of Third Culture Kids.

Today’s guest is Renata Andrade. and her focus area is purpose and meaning through the lens of your life’s work. This is a topic that makes Renata light up and come alive and it’s so fun to hear her talk, as she brings in her psychology training alongside her expat experience for a very rich discussion.

Kim: [00:00:00] Today, I am speaking with my friend Renata all about career development and shifting direction in your career and how that can happen. And some of the other elements of life that are attached to your career choices and direction. I’ve been listening to Renata for a couple of years now, and she has some very interesting things to say on these topics. So I’m excited for you guys to get to hear a little bit from her about that. So, Renata, welcome. Do you want to give us just a little bit of your background, your interest in this topic and your qualifications and things like that?

Renata: [00:00:40] Sure, thank you for having me first.

Kim: [00:00:43] Yes.

Renata: [00:00:43] This is really good. I am I’m first, I’m Brazilian and I’ve been moving around (this is my fourth location). I’m based in Milan right now, but I’m what people call like an expat spouse. And I’ve been following my husband’s career around and trying to figure out my own as we go. So part of the interest in that topic is my own interest of how to do that as we move, because career’s super important for me. So I tend to work with people who actually feel like that, like if they’re not working or doing something career wise, it feels like part of them is isn’t there and is lost. So this is like first of all, is a very personal topic.

[00:01:34] But I also my my career started in HR, so I used to work in H.R. for Unilever and that was my first expatriation. So I’ve been working within the company in terms of helping people develop their careers. And that was my main interest much more than anything else, was recruitment and development and where you go with your career. Then I left. I’m a psychologist and so I’ve been training in each country that I go. I find something to train. I’m a serial student, like I keep studying everywhere I go. So I also worked in private practice as a therapist for a few years. And so the interest was kind of a combination of how important career is in my opinion, and how important work is in our lives, with this kind of added challenge of moving around while you work on something, and therapy, which is like the healing process. Right. The mental health, mental wellbeing and healing as you go. Throughout life, and career is one of the major life areas. So I really believe that we can combine when we’re changing careers or we’re thinking about a career. You can always use that to grow as a person and to help you feel better in general, not just in your career. So that’s my approach to it.

Kim: [00:03:04] All right, very good. Right now, the economy is struggling all around the world, so I think a lot of people might wonder, is this really a good time to make a shift? Shouldn’t I just kind of stay with something that’s safe or known? Maybe somebody wants to branch out and start something new or go to a new country and not have assurances about what they’re going to be able to do. What would you say around around those types of questions?

Renata: [00:03:37] I think they’re very valid questions first of all, like really valid. And for practical reasons sometimes we have to decide: No this is not a good time to take a chance because of family or whatever situation you’re in. And yes, we have to, I think we have to be realistic also about the chances in the world right now and what’s going on. But I also think that you can use the time to re-evaluate and rethink and really be ready for when you see an opportunity. And it could be now and you could see an opportunity now, even because of covid some things are closing and other things are opening. Other doors are opening. I see that a lot. For example, in the therapy world where before people would be more reluctant to do therapy online. And right now it’s like, yeah, we do therapy online. And that’s that’s not a question anymore. Right.

Renata: [00:04:45] So I think a lot of industries are like that. So you have to right now either find what’s opening up instead of focusing on what’s closing down or use the time to really go deep on your, what’s my values? What is success for me? Maybe at this time in my life why am I not satisfied anymore? Maybe because I changed and what’s important for me changed. But to really go deep so that you can, when you make that next step and the next change, you go in in a new direction that is more aligned with who you are right now, instead of just repeating the same pattern and going for another job that you’re going to be bored at or just – a bit like going for the next boyfriend, that is exactly the same. Like you you get out of a relationship and you actually keep trying to find something, but actually choosing people who are quite similar and have always there’s an issue in the relationship. It’s a bit like that, that you could be finding jobs and careers where you always find an issue. Right.

Kim: [00:05:51] Oh, that’s pretty deep, isn’t it?

Renata: [00:05:53] Oh, it is, yeah, it is, but quite common.

Kim: [00:05:57] Yeah, I can see that it would be, I just never thought of it like that.

Renata: [00:06:02] Yeah, the other thing that came to me was there may be people who are on a career break and have been on a career break, and were just starting to think like I need more purpose in my life. I need more meaning, I need to do something. And then covid hit. And then you’re in the middle of this pandemic. A lot of them like were taking care of kids and now there’s more of that in your basket, right. Online learning and everything that’s happening in your house. And there’s very little space in your day and in your life to think about your own career. And maybe you look at the environment and also think, oh, maybe that’s not a good time to start anything because of the whole crisis and how discouraging it is right now for those people. And at the same time, the stress and the pressure and all of that make them even more unhappy about that, that part of their lives. So it’s I think for those people, it’s really important to do something about that. If you can do a small course or you can start a discussion or start getting some help to think through what you want to do next, but start doing something even if it’s a little thing so that you kind of, you make peace with that part of you. That no, I’m taking tiny steps, but I am taking some steps in that direction.

Renata: [00:07:24] There’s me also on the map, not just everyone else and everything else, because you’re going to get resentful and basically unhappy. Right. We have to try to be happy right now.

Kim: [00:07:37] Yeah, so I’m very intrigued by this idea of the bad boyfriend or.

Renata: [00:07:44] You’re stuck with that.

Kim: [00:07:45] Yeah, I’m still there. So what might be some signs that people could see in their career, their professional life that might say, oh, there’s this is a pattern that might be problematic.

Renata: [00:07:59] Yeah, a very common one that I see is when you always have a problem with your boss, right? There’s always something with the boss. If the boss is like – and it varies, it could vary what it is. But there’s always something with authority. Right. We’re talking about your relationship with authority.

Renata: [00:08:20] And that is where the healing process and working on what’s behind it. And what’s your story of authority and what has it been like your whole life and how can you rewrite that story and start having a new relationship now that you are an adult and you’re here and you can change it. You don’t have to keep repeating that story where authority is oppressive, or is not interested in you, your opinion is not valued, or whatever it is that you always feel with. There’s always someone else that is the shining star and you’re the second. If you always feel like there’s always those things repeat and sometimes you don’t even notice, you just get really unhappy. And then you move on to the next one and you feel unhappy again. And when sometimes I have a client who’s talking about it and not even noticing that this happened so many times and you actually end up feeling like I’m so unlucky. I’m so unlucky, this happens all the time. And thinking about what is it in you that creates, helps create that situation. It’s not just you, of course, but what is it in you? What kind, you know, how you present yourself, how you put yourself out kind of invites in a response as well.

Renata: [00:09:46] So if you enter a relationship already thinking and putting yourself in a position where the authority is going to be one way or another, you’re creating more chances that that’s going to happen. Right.

Kim: [00:09:58] Yeah, so people might come to a place where they can see potentially that they might stay in the same job and maybe not suddenly, but they could be happy in that same environment if they were able to shift something internally.

Renata: [00:10:14] Yes, yeah, and that would be, I think, a first thing to explore before you just leave. And it’s hard because usually when people look for help and they’re like fed up and at their limit. But rethinking and redesigning their constellation and their work, how they relate to others. Is a possible path.

Kim: [00:10:44] Yeah, and I suppose if nothing else, it gives you a little bit of practice at doing things in a new way.

Renata: [00:10:50] And a better chance to be to leave well. If you’re going to leave, to leave, well, instead of leaving just like so fed up and cutting relationships and all of that, that could be important in the future, but also could be people that you actually like

Kim: [00:11:09] Yeah. Yeah, any other really common ones? I can see that being a very common one.

Renata: [00:11:17] Yeah, I was thinking about, like, relationship with money is another one, right. And your personal value. Like if you believe you’re not worth, or you keep believing you’re not worth the money, even if you go solo, you’re not working for a company, big company, but you grew up and you have this idea that making money is a hard thing or is attached to something else. That you have to work super hard to get money or you’re not lucky because you don’t make money. I had like this story in my life. I can hear my mom say we’re not good at making money.

Renata: [00:11:53] And it’s interesting how, and it came with, oh, we’re not good at making money, but also some kind of pride of not being money driven. But it’s kind of like a I don’t know, it’s almost like it’s superior. It’s horrible to say, but almost like a superior thing. Right. And so working on those ideas I think about money is also super important. Otherwise you keep going from one place to another feeling I never make as much money as I would like to, or being driven by this thing I have to make money, I have to make money, I have to make money, with the whole story behind it and not being happy with your work because you’re you know, you’re being driven by something that is not what actually you would like to be driven by. And if you go and do something that you really enjoy, you might make more money. If you don’t have that belief that if I do something that I like, I won’t be able to make money. So I don’t know. is that clear or that made it a bit confusing.

Kim: [00:12:54] Yeah, I think that it sounds like that’s a really complex topic, people’s relationship with money and earnings and how work ethic is tied into that and how you feel valued or not valued as an employee based on your salary and whether or not you’re getting these perks or these stipends or whether you’re able to save as much as you wanted to. Yeah, there’s there’s a lot in there.

Renata: [00:13:21] Yeah.

Kim: [00:13:24] So you’re taking me down a very different path of what I would initially think about for someone who’s looking to change jobs or shift somehow in their career. The first thing that would come to mind for me and the people I know would be, OK, I need to get my resume in order. How can I make my resume show off my best qualities and make me a viable, good candidate for the position that I really want? What would you say about fixing up the resume?

Renata: [00:13:58] First of all, my approach to that is that that would be the last thing for you to do, not the first. We tend to go to concrete practical thing, I need to change my CV. And then but I really think there’s some steps that you need to go before so that you re-examine yourself and you’re clear about where you want to go, find the path that you want to go to and almost like work backwards. Instead of thinking before what are the skills that I have, what are the experiences that I have? And then I’m going to see what kind of work that I’m going to look for and build your CV with that logic. If you do it upside down like you think about what would you like to do, what is the thing that you’re aiming for and that you feel like you’re going to be happy. And from that place, you go back in your story and find the experiences that that are relevant for that that you have, for that dream, for that new job, for that new role. And then you rewrite it with that in mind. Like, for example, with someone who would like to be a photographer and open a photograph business that could be a dream. And then you. But I don’t have any photographic like a photographer experience in my career history. How can I build a CV that will help me get a job or get me something in this area? You go back and think about all the experiences you had in photography so that you could be the person who has the most photographs from your kids ever, or you could be.

Renata: [00:15:38] Actually, this actually happened with with a person I was talking to and she remembered like she has actually been paid one time to photograph a wedding. It was a friend’s wedding, but it was a professional experience in a way, because this friend knew that she was so good at it. The courses you took, the all the videos and everything that you’ve been doing there, sometimes you’re like I was the one who used to take photographs in my family. Like since I was a kid, I was the one with the camera and taking photographs. So you can kind of find the thread in your life almost like find the photographer in you, throughout your life. And then you’re going to build something and create that future instead of just repeating the same patterns. Because we tend to look at, OK, so I was trained as a psychologist and then in business and this is the experiences I had at Unilever. And then I’m going to find exactly the same job at the end. Right. And the exact same career, because this is like a kind of follow the same path instead of looking at from the the the career objective backwards. Does it make sense to you?

Kim: [00:16:53] Yeah, I think so, but that sounds like a really, it’s a different process than what I’m familiar with. Does it take a long time? Is it difficult? Is there a way to break it down into steps? How do you approach that?

Renata: [00:17:08] The work is to dive deep on you first. What you want. What are your values? How I do it, I follow the design thinking, design your life thinking kind of model. Which is first you look at where you are in all areas of your life. Then you think about what is work for you, what is the meaning of work, what’s the meaning of life, what you want from your life. So you kind of build a compass for you. With that, and then think about possible maybe three possible paths from that. One is a more traditional one, the one that you would tend to go. The next one would be something you would if that disappeared, your traditional career path was not there, not a possibility anymore, what would you go, what would you do next? Right. And a wild one. A wild card one, right. For me would be I always say that because it’s like my wild card, like makeup artist. Like nothing to do with what I do. There are elements of that that are really exciting for me. And working on how, what would they be they look like and creating little prototypes, little conversations. And maybe shadowing experiences or volunteering strategically on those. Like to test those parts a little bit and see if you really like them. Or just the idea of being a makeup artist that I like. Or do I like the day to day of a makeup artist is something that I would like to or see myself doing. Right. So you have more, you create experiences that you can feel more solid to take the next step than you would have like, OK, this is the direction I want to go. And then you go and look at your CV and what’s written in there and what the experiences that you have that can lead to that path that you kind of tested a bit.

Renata: [00:19:13] Does it feel a little bit easier?

Kim: [00:19:15] Yeah, yeah, that yes, that there are steps, some steps to follow, a path to take you there. If you have someone come to you who wants to work through some career development issues, how long do you typically work with someone?

Renata: [00:19:29] So I typically work six months. And it could vary a lot. Because six months would be for this discovery and figuring out where you want to go and some people would like to continue after to go in that direction and create that. So that would be a longer experience. And other people would like to just have a few conversations to kind of get them thinking a little bit differently and getting some ideas. And then from there, they’re kind of DIY people and they go and they watch some things. They go and start doing it. And sometimes it’s actually quicker because of that. But I don’t, I really don’t sign up for very, very quick things. I think we want that right. We want to have like a quick reorientation. OK I know what I’m going to do and just start doing it in a month. To be honest, I think there’s a lot of money spent and thrown away because of that. Because, again, going back to the repeating and the boyfriend. So if you in a month you do it, the quick thing, you’re probably going to be repeating a lot of your patterns in the next choice. And then in a few years, you’re going to go back to feeling unfulfilled and not sure why what to do next. And again in the same, you’re going to see yourself in the same position.

Kim: [00:20:59] Yeah, so I guess that feeling of unfulfilled and not sure where to go next, that’s another sign of maybe you didn’t quite haven’t quite dived deep enough to find the more fulfilling position or the more fulfilling vocation.

Renata: [00:21:14] Yeah, yeah.

Kim: [00:21:15] Good. Well, this is really fun. I think we could talk a lot longer about this, and I know that you have lots and lots to add to this topic. This is going to publish on Monday the 8th. And you have a challenge starting. Today, right? You want to tell us a little bit about your challenge?

Renata: [00:21:32] Yes, it’s going to be a fun challenge. So I’m running this challenge, looking into our expat lives and bringing more …. It’s called “Live abroad without regrets.” So really putting more energy and more intention and living your life without thinking like “I should have chosen something else. I could have done something else.” And at this point, I think it’s really important because we’re all like on this pandemic. So if we can get some energy and some life into… Back and some adventure back and the sense of being connected with other people abroad and taking care of ourselves while we do this and putting ourselves back on. Like I’m also prioritizing this, and my happiness is also a priority in this journey. So this is the focus of the challenge. And people get an email like challenges do. They have like a little action point. And I’m going to go Live on Facebook and we have some chance for discussions for a little bit more on the topic. And I hope it really will be helpful for people at the end of the week to get a sense of what to start first, to start living their lives with less regret and to feel like, to feel more clear about where, what’s the point in their life that is not so happy and that they need to work on and focus to take more steps.

Kim: [00:23:01] All right, sounds good. So that’s February eight to 12, right?

Renata: [00:23:05] Eight to 12, yes.

Kim: [00:23:06] Ok, so if you’re hearing this in the podcast, then hop over. There’ll be a link in the show notes. You can just hop on over and join right wherever you are. You can join in.

Kim: [00:23:17] All right. Thank you, Renata, so much for coming on and talking with us today.

Renata: [00:23:22] Thank you.

Kim: [00:23:23] It’s a pleasure and I look forward to hearing from you some more in the future, because we have another topic that could do a whole episode in itself. So we’re going to have to come back another time.

Renata: [00:23:34] Yeah, thank you so much, It’s been a pleasure.

I love what Renata said about how you can go through a healing process. Before setting out on a job search, or starting your own business, or changing direction in your career, it’s worth taking a look to see what patterns might be showing up that cause you to feel unsatisfied. And once you’ve worked through that, you can search more intentionally and choose with freedom something that will be satisfying.

So there you have it, you’ve met all 5 of the facilitators for adapt.succeed.together. And if you’d like a small taste of what the program will be like and what it will cover, please join the 5 day challenge: Live Abroad With No Regrets. There’s a link in the shownotes. 

And invite someone you know who could use a little boost.

If you hear this later in the week, no problem – you can still jump in. And after that you can still catch the series of Facebook lives, so be sure and check it out.