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Most of my episodes are rated as “Clean” but this episode is rated as “Explicit” due to some colorful language, shall we say, and we do speak frankly about bodies and sex education, so I’m just drawing your attention to that in case it affects the when & where of how you listen to this episode. 

This is the third in a series on major life transitions that can be more complicated for expats. In episode 12 we talked about giving birth abroad, in episode 13 we talked about when someone dies when we’re in another country, today we’re talking about menopause, next episode is on nutrition and healthy living – taking care of ourselves when we’ve moved countries and when we’re going through these other transitions, and finally we’ll talk about empty nest, or sending the kids off to university.

Today I’ve brought my friend Jane Ordaz, from The Menopausal Expat. Jane is brilliant. She is funny, and she’s so REAL and speaks the plain truth which is so refreshing, and she has a depth of experience that, if you’re going through a hard thing, Jane is a great one to talk to because you feel that she really gets it, and she can hold space for you, and give encouragement – not fluffy encouragement, but the kind that comes from really knowing what it’s like to be where you are – and make you laugh, all at the same time. So if you don’t already know Jane, I suspect you’ll fall in love with her as well, as you’re listening today.

Jane and I, along with three other amazing women, are launching a program that will start in mid February, called Adapt. Succeed. Together. It’s a group coaching program for expats to help you with transition, with uncertainty, with connection and building up your relationships, with finding your own two feet again … because there’s a lot of shifting identity and re-forming yourself that happens every time you move. And even when you’re very happy with your expat life, you may come to a point when you’re looking to establish yourself in a new way. At least that’s been my experience. 

So you’ll be hearing more about this program over the next few weeks, but I wanted to just prime you with that so you have it in mind as you’re listening, because all of us in the Expat Coach Coalition are trained and qualified to offer this program and to help you in these ways. You can’t go wrong with any of us really. So then it’s a matter of, who do you resonate with the most? There’ll be a certain personality or style or vibe that really grabs you, and that’s how you can know who to sign up with when we kick off.

So let’s get to the conversation with Jane Ordaz.

Kim: [00:00:00] So, Jane, I was curious, do you agree with this quote? It comes from an article called, “Why Everyone Needs to Know More About Menopause, Especially Now.” I have this idea that menopause is not talked about, like it’s still this enigma. And I know that certainly in my own life, it’s not something I’ve ever heard talked about much. Until I met you and you started The Menopausal Expat Facebook group, and now I’m thinking about it daily because of everything you’re posting in there. So I’ll read this quote and then you can tell me if you agree with it. It says, “The reason partners and kids have been left out of the educational loop about menopause is that menopausal people themselves have been left out of the loop. So despite the increasing information many women receive about hormonal, physical, emotional impacts of pregnancy and postpartum, that type of sharing knowledge and understanding does not generally extend to include menopause.” Later on in the article, someone says, “the education should not stop with husbands. If kids know what’s going on with their parents and have empathy for them, then our next generation will understand better when it’s their turn.” And that it’s particularly important for boys to learn about menopause so that they are supportive of their potential future mates. So I just wanted to get your response to that. Do you agree that there’s not an information loop, generally speaking, and that boys are even especially left out?

Jane: [00:01:36] I do. I hoped that would change. Because obviously I never received that information when I was in school. We used to do “personal relationships,” which was really about condoms, getting pregnant and starting your period. Maybe if they were brave, they would talk about masturbation, but not very often. That was like the entirety of it. And the girls and boys were split up into separate groups to talk about periods, which was crazy. So now, because I talk about menopause all the time, I sometimes forget that other people don’t talk about it. But daily, time and time again, I see things and I talk to people where they’ve either been to a doctor and there’s no information, the doctor’s not sure. I’ve never had anyone say yes, that was part of my education. So people are looking for things outside of any sort of formal structure. And I think more women have taken the initiative to create Facebook groups and websites and to do that work outside of the health care system. Which could be a good thing and could be a bad thing. But you need both. I like the idea that they take it outside of it because it gives people agency to act for themselves.

Jane: [00:03:01] And I do think we have to talk about it to our partners and our children. And I guess the problem is lots of kids don’t know how to talk about what we’re going through, because if you’re suffering through something or you don’t recognize it or you don’t want to talk about it, you find it difficult. Maybe the last person you want to talk to is your husband, which sounds crazy, or your partner. So that sounds crazy. But sometimes it’s finding the right words and the right understanding. And I guess, you know, I feel lucky in that I kept a lot buried for a while. But generally speaking, I would say I wear my heart on my sleeve.

[00:03:44] So my 11 year old knows all about my menopause and he understands that it really affects me. And I guess once you start to talk about it, it’s great because it unlocks the door to many reasons why you’re behaving in the way you do, or you feel the way you do. But, yes, I do. And I’m still shocked in 2021, 2020, that it’s still difficult and that we’re not teaching people A) about themselves and their bodies or putting that information in whatever information that you want it in. And B) It’s the shame that’s attached to it. I think that we haven’t got rid of the shame that people feel around it and what that means.

Kim: [00:04:32] What kind of shame?

Jane: [00:04:37] I think people feel shame that they’re going through it. They feel shame that, you know, with your body because your body changes, they feel shame. Maybe their libido goes and they don’t know how to get that back. And they feel responsible for, you know, breakdowns in communication, or you feel shame because you can’t…. You know, at its worst, I would have major, major rage outbreaks at random times of the day. And I did feel shame that I inflicted that on the people that I love the most. But the problem with shame is it silences you in a way that’s very, very negative and you push it all inward. So once you can free yourself of that, it’s great. But in order to do that, you need a society and a community which says, well, it’s OK, it’s OK to say you’ve got the menopause. You know, I know some pretty outspoken women and I’ve had a few women say to me, “oh, my God, why do you want to talk about that?” And I’m like, “But why not?” Why not your, you know, you’ll talk about your cervix or your sex life or all these other issues to me. But you don’t want to talk about the menopause. And that seems crazy to me.

Kim: [00:05:56] I have to say, people really don’t talk to me about those other topics either, so that’s all just part of these intimate things that we don’t really talk about. But, yeah, it’s a pretty.

Jane: [00:06:10] Well see, I do have girlfriends and we have talked about very intimate things, and yet we’ve never talked about menopause. You know I suppose I don’t know, maybe this is my world, but I’ve always been quite open with my bodily functions. So I do know women where we have talked about those intimate things. But by the same token, now I know that they haven’t always wanted to talk about menopause,

Kim: [00:06:36] Yeah, I remember hearing when I was a young adult that menopause was something that wasn’t talked about enough. And I just kind of assumed that by the time I got to the stage where I needed information and wanted to talk about it, that information would be readily available. People would be talking about it more, because we already knew that wasn’t talked about enough. And then I arrived at the stage and I was like, well, I kind of I think I need to educate myself a little bit on what’s coming and what to expect and just what’s going on, and …. Nope. Still not really. Still not really a thing. And then I asked my mom, what do I need to know? And she’s like, oh, there’s not that much to say, really. You know she had a relatively – it wasn’t a big event, and so she didn’t have a lot to say. So it’s been, it’s been interesting navigating that.

Jane: [00:07:35] And that’s the difficulty, isn’t it? So, you know, every every woman will go through the menopause, but every menopause will be different. And I think for people who kind of just go through it and come out the other side and it’s OK, maybe it can be hard for them to understand why people want to discuss it. And there’s been a little bit of a backlash, certainly in the British press and maybe in the American. There’s been high profile women talking about menopause, but in the British press, there were a few high profile women that came out and said, oh, stop whinging, just get on with it. Why do you want to talk about it so much? We all go through this, da da da. But I think that’s the thing you have to respect that it’s so different for people. And for some people, it becomes hugely, hugely intrusive in their life to the point where it affects their quality of life. And that’s why we need to talk about it, because we don’t want someone’s quality of life to crumble so much that they really suffer.

[00:08:40] And also we need to talk about it because we need to change what we think it means for us. And what it means for us is walking through a different door. It’s walking through into a new space and a different space that you can fill. And that’s where my frustration came from. I suddenly thought, “Oh, my God. Everyone sees me as old.” And the hairdressers is pulling my hair going, “Mira!. There’s a gray hair here!” Looking at me. And I’m like, well, I like my silver hair. And she’s like, well, you can dye it. I could do this for you. I could do that for you. And I’m thinking, I don’t want to do it. I’m happy, thank you.

Kim: [00:09:15] Isn’t it interesting, the pressure that comes from the hairdresser, because obviously you would not want to have a grey hair and I’m like, no, I do not want to dye my hair, thank you.

Jane: [00:09:30] But and it’s those little things that sometimes you see and you would laugh now, because my Facebook page, the adverts because of the algorithms, it’s full of things around like wrinkle stuff, getting rid of belly fat, doing the texture of your hair, sorting out your skin, because it’s gone all wiry and paper, like it’s full of stuff like this, which makes me laugh so much. But I also think wow, people are bombarded with that so. So if you’re bombarded with that and you feel the shame, why would you want to talk about it? So we have to normalize it and start talking about it.

Kim: [00:10:10] So are you saying it does not mean that we’re getting old?

Jane: [00:10:16] No, look at me, Kim, I’m a splendid human being. But well we are getting old, but that’s OK isn’t it. That’s the difference. That’s what we have to turn around. That there’s nothing bad, really, about getting old. You can argue there is, but it is what it is. And it’s that constant quest for immortal youth and the language of immortal youth that we see all the time that I think puts someone else in your head, not necessarily you. And the minute you can flip the script and start to say, wow, this is actually, you know, a liberating time, a great time. And I certainly thought, wow, if not now, when? Like if not “now is the time for me,” when will ever be the time for me? And I refuse to lay down and go quietly. So that’s that’s where I wanted to step into this space and say, you don’t have to. You know, we celebrate people don’t we, when they’re old by saying to them, oh, you don’t look your age. But what if you look your age and you look bloody brilliant in that age? So that’s the space that I am stepping into. That’s the space I try and step into every day.

Kim: [00:11:41] I love that. One of my friends talks a lot about ageism and there’s so much stigma around being old. And we have all these cultural things that we say about old people that are presented as jokes, but they’re not funny and they’re not very intelligent either They’re just lazy. That’s what she was saying, that the humor around being old is really lazy. I thought that was quite interesting.

Jane: [00:12:08] Yeah, well it came into my head: my mom, when she was alive, she would say to me, “Do you think I can really wear this? Or do you think I look like mutton dressed as lamb?” And she was always like, “could I really wear that?” And it’s a big thing, isn’t it? When you think dress your age? You know, I went to the hairdresser just the other day and I was looking up, I wanted to show her a picture so she could cut my hair. And I put hairstyles in. And then I saw all these things like hairstyles suitable for the over 50s. Like, well, any hairstyle is suitable for the over 50s, just what hairstyle you want, isn’t it? But we have, and there’s this whole thing around when women are older, cutting your hair off and all this kind of molding you into a certain shape. And, you know, there’s a shop in the UK that we always used to laugh at because once you got to a certain age, all the clothes turned into crimplene and became beige. And I know that’s changed now, but sometimes I think the physicality or the visual things we see, rather, has changed. But the psychology in the way we think about it and the hidden things you don’t see hasn’t changed.

Kim: [00:13:21] Yes, there’s a lot to unpack there.

Jane: [00:13:24] It’s a lot, isn’t it?

Kim: [00:13:27] So we’ve talked before about: some of the assumptions that go along with perimenopause and menopause seem to be related to the expectation of being in a certain stage of life, that until you have an empty nest, you certainly would not be old enough to be in perimenopause. But that seems to have been a shift in our culture because we’re meeting loads of women who have young children who are starting into this transition. And I’ve had a lot of people say to me, “oh, you’re not you’re not old enough to be there yet,” obviously, because you have young children or obviously … I’m not sure what the reasons are. But can you talk a little bit about that? Like, do you think that there’s a shift or is it just that there’s more awareness and people are talking about it more openly, and then it’s shocking because people have this preconceived notion that this only happens when you’re really old.

Jane: [00:14:27] Yes, there are a lot of averages on there. So on average, you might go into perimenopause around 49, 50. It might only last for this long and then you become menopausal. But I also know there are women in their late 30s who’ve gone into perimenopause and some women can go into it much earlier than that because it’s induced because of operations they might have had or illnesses they might have had That’s where the medical profession does people a disservice. I hear women say, oh, I went to the doctor, he said, “oh, no, no, you’re too young” and everybody. So there’s that layer to it. But then I guess there’s also the layer of the societal expectation that we do all have this nice pattern to our lives and we’re, you know, you get married here, you get married this, then you have your child here. And, you know, I had my son when I was 44. I think I probably hit menopause maybe around 48, really, 47, 48. But I didn’t understand because I thought it was having a small child that makes you just think, “oh my God, my life is ending, I’m sleep deprived. It’s really hard work, it’s too much responsibility.” And then when I came to Mexico at 49, that’s when it really, really knocked on. And I think there is a thing where people see you and they see with a five year old and they’re like, oh, you must only be this age or you must only be that age. And it’s changed because people delay having children, some people don’t have children, so it’s not a …. That’s the thing I’ve learned most is it’s not a linear process, just the same as the decline in your oestrogen goes crazy in an up and down way. So does our life, doesn’t it? It’s not it’s not the same. And then in a way, it’s another thing that makes it even harder to say, “oh, I’m you know, I feel like this because I’m menopausal,” because then people look at you and go, you had a child at how old? You know, when I had my child, they call me a geriatric mother. And it’s hilarious, the geriatric mother.

Kim: [00:16:37] But that’s over thirty five, I believe. Isn’t that crazy? I got shocked by that term as well.

Kim: [00:16:48] Tell us a bit of your story, what brought you to your particular interest in this topic and how that goes together with people living abroad?

Jane: [00:17:05] Basically, I lived my entire life in the UK, and then at 49, I moved with my partner, who’s Mexican to Mexico with our son. And not long after that, I would say probably six months into that, I started to feel really bad. Well Quite early on I felt really bad, but I thought, oh, I’ve moved, I’ve lost my confidence because I’m feeling a bit shy, and I don’t want to go anywhere. So I was wanting to hibernate. I was boiling, and I thought, this is Mexico, it’s very hot. We haven’t got any aircon in the house. I was going out and meeting some people and I was just like Oh, I just can’t be bothered. And I was very like cross, and I just felt really not at harmony with the universe. Or myself, really.

[00:17:57] And I guess I kind of pushed it to the side and just thought, I have to carry on regardless. And anyone who’s going through the menopause, you know, it’s like a big roller coaster. It comes and goes. And the peak of the curve came down and I flattened out a bit and then it would come back. And so I just kept carrying on regardless, really. And then I guess through this crazy virtual world, I started to make more connections with people and it became easier to talk about because once I realized…. The bit of the puzzle that’s missing is I was once just dripping with sweat. And for some reason I thought (maybe this was the universe telling me) I suddenly remembered my mom. And my mom would always have a hanky and she’d move her glasses, she’d wipe their eyebrows, she’d wipe behind her neck. We’d all say to her, “God mom, You all right? What’s happening to you?” And she’d go, “Oh nothing, I’m just hot.” and then that would be it. And I suddenly realized, oh my gosh, this is what it is. And so once I realized that I started to do a bit of reading I started asking women here where I lived, you know a good gynecologist? You know anyone I can talk to? And they all started to talk about HRT and things being inserted. And I’m not that person. So I thought, OK, I don’t want to go because I don’t want to talk through an intermediary. Because that feels like … I wanted to do it myself.

[00:19:29] And then I kind of self medicated in a sense. I started to change my diet and care for myself more and look at all the alternative ways of honoring the process and honoring what’s going on.

Kim: [00:19:42] So you’re using self medicated in a positive term here. OK, OK.

Jane: [00:19:47] In a positive way, yes, sorry. Yeah, yeah, not in a dodgy way, no. In a positive way. You know, my diet, what I drank, how I exercise, meditation, all the kind of I’d say like the key foundations that you need really to help yourself. And it was like a key unlocked something. And I suddenly I felt much, I felt liberated from it, really. And because I’m quite a stubborn person, I was just like, I will be damned if this is going to break me. I need to find a way to make this a good time. So I stumbled around many things and tried lots of different things. And then obviously with you, met you through the Expat Coach Coalition. I was thinking about what I wanted to do with that and The Menopausal Expat, she literally came to me in a vision while I was drying my hair, which sounds ridiculous, but it’s true.

Kim: [00:20:44] Now all good ideas come when you’re drying your hair.

Jane: [00:20:49] I was suddenly like, “she’s here! It’s The Menopausal Expat!” And she was there. And I remember I got on an email to my friend who did the cartoon for me.

Kim: [00:20:58] Which is brilliant.

Jane: [00:21:01] And I said, You have to draw me, you have to draw me Jacky. I’m The Menopausal Expat. And she just came back with that. And that’s how this person who is ahead of me, but also is like my cry to all the other women. She encapsulates all those other women out there just like me that are struggling and living outside of their passport countries trying to navigate new systems, thinking about themselves in new ways. She’s my little lighthouse for them, really. That’s what I wanted her to be. I wanted her to represent all of those women and not to not to have to go it alone the way I had to go it alone. So I searched tons of stuff on menopause, tons of brilliant stuff on menopause, tons of brilliant stuff on expats and expat life, but nothing that put the two together. So even things like reading advice on, you know, a menopause group: “Go see a GP.” Well, that doesn’t apply. I mean, we’ve talked about this before. That’s not as simple is it, when you’re not in a system you know, or a country you know, and that system doesn’t exist. Take this supplement. This might help. I can’t get it here. It’ll get held up in customs. So all the things you take for granted if you were living in the country, that you understand the system that you maybe grew up in, you can’t here anymore. So it can be kind of isolating. And I wanted to create a community that stopped that isolation.

Kim: [00:22:41] That’s great. Yeah, it’s lovely to see people coming and starting to share their stories and “oh, I came across this” and recommending books and just coming to events and say, “hey, I had a terrible day” and then coming to celebrate and say I’m feeling really good. And it is. It is a community. It’s really nice.

Jane: [00:23:02] Because the truth is, I’m positive about menopause, but let’s not make any – I’m not dressing it up as something nice because it really bloody sucks at times. So I think it’s really important to have a space that’s positive, but where you can say, oh, this menopause is crap today, I can’t do this today, I have to zone out today. You know, and that’s what I wanted that space to be.

[00:23:28] And you know what it’s like when you are in a different country and you move, you need your energy and you need lots of resolve to go out and meet people. And I’ve had times where I literally felt like I’ve taken sleeping tablets when I haven’t, because I was just so fatigued. That depletion. Or you need to go meet a bunch of new people and they all look like grown ups and you’re like this little six year old, and you don’t want to say hello to any of them because you feel like, leave me alone, leave me alone. You just feel that this wall of shyness come over you, that I’ve never experienced, never in my life before. So it I think it can fundamentally alter your relationship with yourself and how you then relate to other people. And that’s when you talk about it. It pulls the vel off it and then it’s not so bad.

Kim: [00:24:21] Yeah, because it’s really confusing if you don’t know what’s happening, if you can’t name, “why is this happening to me?” When you’re already in this really confusing state of trying to figure out how life works in a new place, it’s a lot to pile on top.

[00:24:42] I think we have created a very body positive atmosphere in our home and we’re quite open about bodily functions and all kinds of things that when I was growing up we didn’t really talk about, but I wanted to create a bit more of an open atmosphere and just not have a veil over these things. So our bathrooms are not closed a lot of the time. (I think a lot of parents of young kids relate to that. If you ever wanted to get interrupted, just go into the bathroom.) But then I found that a few times I was using code language around my cycles and different things, and my husband called me out on it and he said, yeah, well, you could use a code word, but you could just talk about it and use the proper word, just like we do with everything else. It made me pause. And it’s been a new thing that I’ve had to learn how to talk about. What is it that I want to say? What is the message I want to give my kids about it? Because I have three girls. I want them to have a positive message about it, but I’m still figuring it out for myself as I go. So it’s been quite a process. My cycles have always been pretty easy going, even-keel kind of, I haven’t had a lot of mood swings and things, but for me, the unpredictability has been really hard. Coming to a new understanding of who I am and how my body works, it’s been surprisingly unsettling.

Jane: [00:26:27] Well, it’s interesting, though, isn’t it, because it’s: The certainty is that it’s uncertain and that you don’t necessarily fall into that pattern again.

[00:26:38] And I’ve lost my thought, so this could be my menopause! Every time I lose my thought, I say that’s my menopause; brain fog. But I had a very good point then, and I’ve just forgotten it.

[00:26:48] You said it’s been surprisingly unsettling. And that’s the thing, isn’t it? Is how do you take that unsettling and rather than let it throw you off. How do you go? OK, so something’s shifting, I feel unsettled. Where can I take it? And the choices we have is we can take it and embrace it and see it as a discovery, as an exploration, or we can go, oh shit, I can’t deal with this. It’s too unsettling. And we start beating ourselves up. And the path I’m trying to encourage is to explore what you can do with that. And part of that is to try and accept that uncertainty. That’s what I hold out for. Easier said than done, I know, but we’ve got a whole lot of life left in us yet, so it seems like the most logical step to go down.

Kim: [00:27:46] I like the idea, but as you say, easier said than done. You have interviewed a whole load of people in your Facebook group. How many interviews did you do last month?

Jane: [00:28:01] Fifteen.

Kim: [00:28:01] Fifteen. It was fantastic, all kinds of different topics, so if there are any listeners here who want to start exploring, you can join The Menopausal Expat Facebook group and go back and see all these different interviews. They were all great. So I’m wondering, as you have just absorbed so much information from many different perspectives as you’ve been building up this group, are there some particular themes that stand out to you? Struggles people have been having, questions people commonly ask, common experiences that jump out at you in this particular mix of menopausal expats?

Jane: [00:28:50] I guess some of the commonalities that came around that was managing symptoms: how do you manage menopause symptoms? That’s one of the common things that people talk about. And a sense that your body’s changing in a way that means you don’t feel like you can do things the way you did do them. So one of the things that really came out from that month was what people’s different approaches to, for example, diet and what foods you can avoid that may help you. And people giving. And the physicality side. So, you know, yoga is a huge thing that can really help you. Alongside doing – Anya talked about weight training and doing that kind of resistance stuff when you’re older. And so I think what came out was to get some kind of discipline going about yourself, really.

[00:29:53] I’m struggling with it because it was so huge. But I guess the first one was, first of all, you’ve got to know haven’t you? You’ve got to know what’s going on for yourself. So there’s a few women in the group who are like, I’m not sure I’m there yet, but they will know. So from that that kind of health care perspective was having agency to act for yourself. So we had women talk about Ayurveda, women talk about more plant based nutrition, exercise and how that can can really help. And that’s very much about looking after your physical body. And then I guess some of them cross over because the other thing that’s really important to look after is your your mind, I guess the more spiritual side of who you are. Because they’re all interconnected, because that spiritual side, if you will, help you look after your cortisol. Look after your cortisol and you’re less stressed, then your symptoms may be reduced and aren’t as strong. And when they are, you go through them and it’s not such a huge thing to have to deal with, or it doesn’t seem insurmountable. I guess that’s the difference. So those really, you know, look after your mind, look after your body and then your spirit follows. And when your spirit follows, that’s the thing. And Kate spoke about the second phase woman. And people, there were lots and lots of positive comment to that. And that’s very much about seeing it as a time of opportunity. And there was a lot of interaction on that that interview I did with her.

Jane: [00:31:36] And I think it’s because women want to step into it and they want to see it. But it’s also hard. And once you have someone talking about it, it seems like it’s a possibility all over again. So, yeah, it was so… It was quite wide ranging. I wanted to do like it was for Menopause Month, so I wanted to do like a pick-a-mix of, you know, all the different things to do with menopause. Kind of as an experiment, really. But they you know, when Renata spoke about careers and how we might look at our careers or something that’s meaningful to us in our life at this stage and the approach you can take, that got people listening. So I think women are hungry to be given some opportunities to take from the smorgasbord what works for them. And that’s what you need.

[00:32:29] So that’s why I’m rambling, because, you know, I’d written down here it’s about finding your mojo. And finding your mojo might be that exercise really does it for you, or diet does, or rediscovering your love of art that you haven’t picked up for a long time, whatever that thing is. That’s what you’re looking for. I suppose what I was trying to do is to give people permission to try that coat on. And if it doesn’t fit and they don’t like it, you sling it off and you can try another one. But this is, this feels like the time to do that. So that’s what that month for World Menopause Month was about.

Kim: [00:33:09] I love that image of try on the coat and try on a lot of different ones. Now, what has come up around talking with kids for those who are raising kids abroad and going through in perimenopause and menopause?

Jane: [00:33:28] Not a lot is the truth. Because you’re the person I’ve talked to about talking to kids and thinking about how we talk to kids. So definitely people say, yes, it’s important, but we also need to talk about it here, here and here. So I don’t… The truthful answer to that is, apart from having the conversation with you, and I talk to my son about it, I don’t know other people who are talking about it. So it will be very interesting. I might pose that question, actually: Who’s talking to their kids more about the menopause and how are you doing it?

Kim: [00:34:01] Yeah. How does your son react when you talk about it?

Jane: [00:34:09] Well, he’s 11, so obviously he’s like. I remember I said to him a lot of yucky stuff for him as well. It’s like so he said to me, “what’s menopause?” So I explain what menopause is. And then he’s like, what’s a period? So I explain what a period is. He goes, Oh, that’s disgusting. So then I say, oh my gosh, now I’ve got a big job to do, to say, no, it’s not disgusting. So we had a discussion about, you know, it’s a marvel of nature that a body can do that, to create a life or to replenish itself, or however you want to think about it. So but for me, he has a mom that has… (Well, I thought I didn’t have a period and then like about seven months ago, I did have a period.) But mostly he’s not in an environment where he’s with lots of other women seeing that happen. So I feel, gosh, he needs to know this stuff because otherwise he’s going to have a really big shock, because when he makes friends that are girls and, you know, is in that world. So it’s very… I go with you, I tell him what is happening, and if he asks me a question about anything to do with my body, I just use the language and tell him based on the notion that once he’s had enough, he’ll stop asking questions. So we ask him questions, I’ll tell him, and then he’ll go “Oh, can I go and play Fortnight now?” Yeah, OK. So I just go with that really. And we’re quite… Like you, we don’t, I don’t lock bathroom doors, or we have a chat in the shower, you know, all that stuff. So I don’t feel uncomfortable. He’s not uncomfortable yet. When he’s uncomfortable, I’ll stop. And when he doesn’t want to talk to me about the menopause anymore. In fact, he said to me the other day, “you’re always talking about the menopause Mum.” So, yeah, someone here did say to me, but what if he says that at school? This is before Covid obviously. What if he says that at school? I’m like, well, that’s good, because then he’ll have got… Kids will also know from the correct source and not from another 10 year old who’s been told it by another ten year old. So I believe in openness, really.

Kim: [00:36:35] Yeah, I haven’t had a lot of cycles in recent years, and I had a pretty heavy one not too long ago. And I was in the bathroom and I had forgotten to lock the door. I just wasn’t in the mood to explain at that moment, and the little one came in. She’s knocking at the door and I’m going, no, no, don’t come in. Of course, that made it worse. I didn’t do a very good explanation because I wasn’t mentally prepared to do it at that moment. But I have more to explain. I have more to talk about with them because they just haven’t seen it. Normally, I’m very matter of fact, this is what it is, it’s no big deal, but she seems worried by blood in general. So I think it was a little hard for her.

Jane: [00:37:22] Yes, yes, yes, yes, when they’re little for sure. And I mean I know… I don’t know because son hasn’t been to school in the UK anymore, but I’ve seen some moves to include things like menopause more in the curriculum. I think if the education system did that then it would normalize it a lot more, wouldn’t it? Make it like, OK, so this is part of who we are. And I read something recently and it was saying, basically we’re always defined by what stage of menopause we’re in. Because we’re either completely pre-menopausal, perimenopausal, menopausal, or postmenopausal. So our whole life is defined. So we need to say don’t we. But I don’t know if you can say to a five year old, it’s OK because you’re pre-menopausal right now. But it would make it easier if you just could chat, if it was just part of… well it is part of life, but more part of the established, information structures, I suppose.

Kim: [00:38:23] What’s your sense of how coping with what’s happening in perimenopause is exacerbated when you layer that on with coping with family and parenting stresses at the same time? Do you think that makes a big difference?

[00:38:40] Someone laughed at me. We met someone new, she met me, she says, Oh your daughter is so-and-so age, and you have another daughter this age and another daughter this age…. And she just did a quick calculation in her head and she laughed and she said, “Oh, your husband’s going to have a great time with menopause and puberty at the same time in your house.” And we all laughed. And then…. Do we make it out to be more than it is, or do we make it out to be less than it is?

Jane: [00:39:15] Well, everyone’s thing is their thing isn’t it? Everyone’s journey is their journey particular to them. And as you were talking what I was thinking is, what’s made it hard sometimes is when you’re maybe dealing with, I dunno, an emotional teenager who’s going through puberty, or for me, like an emotional crazed six year old who is just losing it. And you need to be the person this calm and this adult and this rational… And actually what is going on inside you is you really want to lose it. And sometimes those things do add that level of pressure. So it can become literally like a pressure cooker. So that can happen. And I know I’ve lost it with my child. I’ll be very honest about that sometimes. And things that maybe 10 years ago I might have had a bit more patience towards, I could have maintained my composure a little bit more. And then the other thing is things like just feeling exhausted, just feeling knackered and wanting a break. And you can’t walk away from that child that needs you. You just don’t do it, do you? So sometimes, you know, I’m lucky I’m in a partnership. So I do get breaks. But I guess when we first arrived here and my partner was the one going out to work all the time and he would leave at first thing in the morning and come back at six, seven o’clock at night.

[00:40:50] As my son got a bit older, I couldn’t say to him, oh look, let’s go and have a cuddle on the bed and have a little snooze. Because he’s like I don’t want to snooze, I want to go out here and do this. And I was having to take him around and that was pretty hard and quite stressful. So I think it does add another another layer and another level of your having to deal with yourself and someone else. It’s not just you, is it, anymore? That’s the difference. But I guess if you’re not with children or your children have flown the nest, you’ll also have your own level of stuff that you’re dealing with. It’s possibly a different level of stuff. That’s not really a definitive answer at all, it’s just a shared thought.

Kim: [00:41:39] Well, it’s all very individual, so it’s hard to make generalizations about that. But you know what I have noticed in the last few months now that perimenopause is in my consciousness, and then some people might remind me, “well, maybe, maybe it’s menopause, maybe that’s kind of the underlying factor that’s that’s happening right now.” It’s good to have some language for that or some ideas, say, well, maybe that’s what’s happening here. Because it reminds me that it’s OK. It’s a good thing to just stop and take care of yourself. I’ve had some days where I had fatigue that surprised me and I don’t know if it was related to perimenopause, but I just said I can take a nap. It’s OK. It’s good for me to take a nap and take care of myself. So that’s been a shift, a positive shift to just allow me to take care of myself the way I need to and give space for whatever is happening right now.

Jane: [00:42:43] That’s a nice phrase, isn’t it: Give space. Because I think that’s the thing as well, is when you’re caring for other people it’s such a classic, isn’t it, to always put yourself at the back of the queue and not say, I need to do this right now. And I know that’s not always, it’s not always possible to do what you really need to do depending on the circumstances. But when you can do it, it’s really important, even if it’s just for, you know, five, ten minutes. I know I’ve certainly sometimes said to my son, “I’m going in the bedroom, I’m going to go for five minutes and then I’ll be back. But you just need to leave me alone.” And then I go, and I come back and he doesn’t take it away, but it just has helped. So we do. It’s a good reminder that you have to, if there’s ever a time to take mega, mega good care of yourself, I think when you hit menopause and perimenopause is definitely the time. Because your body won’t or your brain won’t thank you for just trying to push through it. I think there’s always a sense you have to power through everything. Just keep going through that wall. And it’s almost like you need to stop and refill the tank because it will just run out. And when it runs out, it’s just not good, in many many ways.

Kim: [00:44:04] Any other words of wisdom, pearls of wisdom, or anything else you want to share?

Jane: [00:44:13] Well it’s good you brought that up about taking care of yourself. So this last week, I felt really terrible and I started to get into an argument with myself, you know: you’ve just got to do this. You’ve just got to get on. You’ve got to keep doing this. You’ve got to keep doing that. And I just I can’t. And I’m not going to. So I decided just to lay low for the week, and I literally looked after myself. I read a book, did my yoga, did the meditation, let myself off the hook from everything that was, you know, that little critical parent or parrot on your shoulder that’s telling you “not doing it right, not…” So I tried to let go of all of that. Watch telly quite a bit. And I’ve come you know, I woke up at 5:20 this morning. I was raring to go. But I wouldn’t have done – I know I wouldn’t have done – because I was going into a “boof” – you know, going down. So when you recognize that happening, stop and re-set. It’s like a little pause button and a reset button and just take care of yourself.

Kim: [00:45:22] And what was your phrase? There’s a reason there’s a pause in menopause.

Jane: [00:45:31] Yes, so it’s funny, isn’t it, because there’s a contra one to that as well, like I saw on a post the other day that said “just because there’s a pause in menopause doesn’t mean you have to stop.” I was like, OK, I’ve got the opposite way. So I think the reason I was playing with it, but there’s a reason there’s a pause in menopause, because sometimes you do have to pause. It doesn’t mean you stopped, but you just have to pause and give yourself time. That’s. And be really nice to yourself. And kind to yourself. Because you’ve got this amazing next phase, next part of your life to go into, and you can’t go into it with full commitment and gusto if you’re knackered, basically.

Kim: [00:46:13] I think it’s a wonderful thing to model for our kids, to listen to your body, take time off, to take care of yourself, to take the rest you need to nourish yourself, to give the exercise that you need, all those things. If they see us day to day, “what’s going on here? OK, I need to respond a little bit differently.” That is a wonderful thing. If we can make that process a little more out loud, a little more obvious to our kids that that’s what we’re doing. And this is why I think that’s a wonderful thing to model.

Jane: [00:46:57] Me, too, and you know, that that old adage where they say kids do what you do, not what you say, you know, I’m going back full circle to my mom. My mom was just like a little workhorse, really. You know, she scrubbed other people’s floors, got up at 5:00 to work in a factory. Was, when I think back about it, was clearly just very exhausted all of the time and uncomfortable. And I don’t know what else she was going through, but I think back at her and I think, gosh, sometimes she was like bent with fatigue. Now I’m an adult, I can see that. And so I picked up a lot of that. I would always think, I’ve just got to carry on. I’ve got to carry on. It’s not the done thing just to stop. And I think, you know, if I’d have said to my mom, self care, she might have just laughed and gone, “What’s that? What do you mean self care? I’m not spending a tenner on a massage, what a waste of money.” So that was the kind of environment that I grew up in. So I had to learn these things. And it’s taken me a long time. And I would say it’s probably only in the last 15 years that I started to do it. And since I came to Mexico and got very, very tired and am troubled by symptoms, that I’ve really, really made a very conscious effort to do it. So you’re absolutely right. The more you can model it for your kids now, the better.

I forgot to say goodbye to Jane during the recording, but I know she would have said something very heartwarming and wonderful.

If this is a subject that you want more of, join Jane’s Facebook group, The Menopausal Expat. She and I did an interview inside that group a week ago on December 14. And you can go back further to find more interviews. As she said, in October she did 15 or so interviews on all sorts of topics, all of which were worthwhile, with some follow ups and repeat guests since then. This could be your binge watching extravaganza during winter break instead of Netflix!

You’ll be hearing more from us about our group program called Adapt. Succeed. Together. that’s set to begin February 15. We have a whole schedule of events in January and February. We’ve got a series of short talks called Expat Coach Confessions where we’ll be sharing some of our learnings. Then some taster webinars so you can experience a small slice of the program. And then a 5 day challenge that’ll be a fun way to zoom in on one topic and move forward. So stay tuned and make sure you’re following my business page, Resilient Expats, for all the updates.