Ep 13. Death, with Cath Brew

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Kim: When we were in Thailand, I learned that when a person dies there, the family takes care of the body, and they make all the arrangements themselves. You can see scattered all around the countryside, the little crematoriums. But for me, it was really shocking to think that the family had to do everything themselves. 

I thought to myself, how could you do that TO people who are grieving? Because I come from the US, and this is a culture where we’re quite disconnected, where we’re very removed from everything surrounding death, and we outsource everything to a funeral home. And we don’t talk about it too much either. It’s a little bit of a taboo topic, or it’s at least not something that you would talk about in polite company. And most people aren’t very comfortable talking about death. I didn’t experience a lot of people close to me dying when I was growing up. I was in touch with life cycles around plants and animals because I grew up on a farm, but people … not so much. 

And then I heard an interview with a lady (I think she was in California) talking about the options that we have. She was promoting the idea that families in the US could take care of the body themselves, if they wished to, at their home. They could choose a very simple casket, if they wished to, instead of that hugely expensive and environmentally burdensome type. They could choose to not embalm the body, if that’s what they chose.

I had no idea that these were even options. So that was kind of shocking information for me. But as I listened to that interview, she described the healing that happened for families who chose to take care of the body themselves. That they had time to say goodbye in their own way and in their own time. And they could see very clearly that the life was not contained in that body. 

And I began to think, why would you not do that FOR people who are grieving?So ever since then, this has just been kind of rattling around in the back of my mind. And I have this preference to take care of things at home. 

But when I thought about it in detail of where I live and what would be involved, I realized I would need a lot of help. And it could be really complicated or impossible. Yeah. There are so many extra complications when a loved one passes away in the host country, or if we’re away and someone back home dies. 

I wanted to invite Cath here to talk with us today, because I know that you’ve been in and around the…

Cath: [00:02:39] The funeral profession.

Kim: [00:02:40] The funeral profession. I know that you have a lot to offer from a few different angles, and so I thought we could see what we can get into today.

Cath: [00:02:49] Yeah, I’m very happy to be here.

Kim: [00:02:52] Yes, so maybe we could start with maybe: What some of those complicating factors are? Or before we start there, if you want to say a little bit about your background in this area.

Cath: [00:03:03] Yeah, thanks, Kim. Um, 

I’m an Australian and I worked in Australia in cultural landscapes, historic landscapes, and that led me into doing a lot of work with cemeteries and managing cemeteries and helping the public advocate – on behalf of the public to look after them. And in the process, I learnt a huge amount about death rituals and what’s involved in, as they say, “disposing of the body” is is kind of a technical way of talking about it. And so I’ve always been – work-wise, the last kind of 10 years or so, 15 years – has always been in and around death. I’m married to an embalmer. 

I work with the spiritual side of things, too, with death, with sacred space, and how you help people through grief. So…. And then also being an expat myself and working with identity and belonging, there’s a huge amount around rituals and cultural practices and all that kind of stuff. And I’m interested in death because it’s – it is still a taboo and it’s something that people don’t talk about. And I’m always interested in the things that people don’t talk about.

Kim: [00:04:10] Yeah. What are some of the complications that come to mind, especially for expats?

Cath: [00:04:16] The first thing is, probably it depends on the circumstances. And that’s a very open way of starting to answer a question, but it really does! So it’s about… There’s lots of things that come into it.

So it’s firstly, if you get news that someone at home has died, it’s do I want to go back to be there? What can I live with myself if I don’t go back? Or if I do go back, what do I have to live with? And actually, you’re the one that has to live with yourself and your grief and how you need to cope. So it’s an important question to ask yourself. 

The other thing is also for some cultures, it’s do I need to go back (like religiously or culturally). Is it expected that I go back? Because you’ll often find that if someone’s been born in another country or moved away, that actually their connections with the home culture and home rituals and ways might not necessarily be as strong. And I know in the UK there’s quite a few funeral directors who specialize in Ghanaian funerals and a lot of funerals in countries in Africa, because the kids that are here are adult children and they don’t actually know the practices. And it’s the funeral directors who have to tell them what they need to do to enact their role as a as a good child,

Kim: [00:05:32] Oh, wow.

Cath: [00:05:32] so to speak. So there’s a lot of, a lot of people don’t actually know what they’re meant to do. So that’s one thing if there are really strong cultural practices. 

For the rest of us, there’s kind of… This is where it gets a bit iffy, because if you don’t have a religion, there often aren’t set things so it comes down to personal choice or I don’t want to say duty, but that kind of expectation that you might need to go home. So it’s kind of, “Do I want to go back?” and what can you live with? 

And then what comes into that then is things like timing. So in the Muslim community generally it’s bury as quickly as possible and that’s usually within 24 hours. So people will often not manage to get home. But that’s actually OK because it’s a cultural expectation and knowledge from day one that, you know, that a funeral has to happen quickly. So you haven’t got the added level of complex grief basically on it if you can’t get home in time for a funeral.

Cath: [00:06:31] The other thing is, is if you do want to go home, do you want … If it’s someone that’s close to you, do you want to actually see the body? Do you want to see that person? And if you can’t get home in time, then embalming is a very good option to keep that person in a stable environment so that you can view them when you can get there, because often people can’t get quickly. And look, at the moment, with Covid, it’s particularly difficult to try and be there to see people.

Cath: [00:06:59] So there’s all these things of what you have to work out, whether you can live with essentially. And to know that whatever you decide is your decision. It’s very easy for partners and family members to put pressure on people. And actually, it’s not about that. It needs to be about what you can live with and and how you feel about that person, what you need to do for you.

Cath: [00:07:22] The other thing I would say is if if you’re dying within your host country, needing to understand the legal requirements of that country, what needs to happen. 

And also things like does the does the person who’s died, do they, did they wish to go home to be to be buried or cremated? And if they do, then you need to look at things like the financial implications of that. And so returning a body to a country is incredibly expensive compared to taking home ashes, which you can carry on a plane in your hand luggage or in the hold. And those kind of expenses are often not what people actually can suddenly produce if they want to take a full body home.

Cath: [00:08:05] So this is the idea of preplanning and thinking about what you might want. Or having conversations with your loved ones means that when it happens, you’re much more prepared for whatever those choices might be. And also you’re making decisions when you’re not in grief. So if you make a decision months and months or years in advance of what you think you might do, it just means that when you’re in grief, you’re able to just follow through much easier with what you’ve already decided. It’s not an added, there’s no added decisions to be made in that sense. So that’s some of the things, but there’s loads more.

Kim: [00:08:43] Yeah, yeah, I think the financial and the legal side of things to me seems quite difficult to find out. Sometime after we came to Oman, I met with the consul or somebody from the consulate here in this country, and I was asking him, what would the procedures be if someone were to pass away? Then what happens? Because in this region, I had heard stories and people had said to me directly things like, you know, if your husband were to die, you should immediately get all of your money out of the bank, pack your bag and get out of the country before anybody finds out. Because they’ll take your children away, because they have to be passed to the nearest male relative, not to the mother. So kind of instilling a lot of anxiety around that.

Cath: [00:09:31] Yeah, absolutely.

Kim: [00:09:32] So I asked the consul what would happen, and he kind of. Well, he was very surprised that I was asking and he wasn’t very comfortable. He was kind of just trying to talk me out of this undue anxiety. But he didn’t understand that, for me, just knowing a little bit about what to expect would take away my anxiety. It would just help me think ahead about what do I need to have in place and all of that.

Cath: [00:09:59] Yeah, there’s a lot of complications, and it’s like with my own father, he died in another country to where I grew up with him. And he, when we went to see him before he died, we asked numerous, numerous questions of family members and various people about what needed to happen legally. And it wasn’t till after we got back to the UK that we got a text to say that his funeral had already happened and it had gone well. And the one thing they failed to tell us was that the funeral had to happen within 48 hours legally in that country. And that’s kind of not the best thing that you want to be dealing with when you’re already dealing with grief. 

So understanding the country within which that person’s living and how it varies whether you’re a local with a passport or whether you’re an expat that’s kind of a visitor in that country and whether you have different rights is hugely important.

And also things like if you’re married, if you’re both of the same country, that’s kind of one thing. But if you’ve got a marriage where you’ve married someone from another country, they may have completely different expectations of how you do death, shall we say, or how you grieve appropriately. So one part of the family might be, yeah, that’s great. We sing and we dance and we make music, and other ones well, we have to be the stiff upper lip and kind of… we don’t cry and we’re… It’s very serious. And that can be quite difficult to cope with if you’re needing to be how you need to be and it’s at odds to the other people that you love. 

So understanding each other’s cultures in terms of some of those ritualistic things can be incredibly important because we don’t talk about them until they happen. And then it’s every… As you talk about anxiety, everyone’s on that level of being stressed because they’re in that, some space of finding that they’re in grief. And they’re wanting to do it how they need to do it. And then you end up doing this It can be quite complex.

Are there any soft inroads into these conversations? 

I mean, I don’t know if that would be a difficult conversation or if that would be a rather matter of fact, assuming that’s happening far in advance and it’s just an information seeking mission.

Cath: [00:12:15] Yeah, yeah, it can be quite hard because people, like you indicate with the consul, people don’t like to talk about death. It is still a taboo. And in the UK, there was some research done recently that showed it was really high percentiles like 80, 90 percent of people (I can’t remember exactly), but they said that they were fine with talking about death and it was no issue. And it was yeah, it was fine. Doesn’t bother me. But when they did the next question of have you made any provision for your own and what are you going to do? That was like almost zero, like 20 percent, something like it just dropped. So on one level, intellectually, people are okay, but emotionally they can’t take that next step. So.

Kim: [00:12:53] Yeah, I think maybe the separating talking about death, about someone else theoretically is different than contemplating my own mortality.

Cath: [00:13:01] Yeah, exactly, and one of the ways it works very well is often when people are watching a TV program or they’re sitting watching a film and they might turn to their other half on the sofa and say, oh, actually, I don’t want that, that’s horrible. Or I’d love this. Or if a conversation, something in the news comes up or something on social media. There’s often things on social media about kind of green, environmentally friendly burial options. And even just sharing it with a partner and saying, look, look at this, what do you think of this? And just starting a conversation. And it often starts a much deeper one. Then you realize what people want or don’t want. 

But also, what can be quite difficult with parents when they’re getting older is that they might not know what they want. Then you’re going to be the one that’s actually having to take the lead in organizing a funeral. And for you emotionally, it’s so much easier if you can just carry out what you know they want rather than you having to make decisions. So, yeah, I think the softly, softly approach is: I heard something on the radio the other day that was talking about this.

Cath: [00:14:04] Like what do you think about this, or did you see in the news, or you just you start it from kind of a different angle and bring it round to personal. Because people don’t want to talk about it. And they’re awkward and they don’t know how to as well. So. Yeah.

Cath: [00:14:21] I was just going to say that if you find that you’re living in another country and you get a diagnosis of being terminally ill and you want to die in your home country, or another country that’s not where you’re living. Be aware that there is a certain point at which airlines won’t let you fly, that you can actually be too late for flying, you can be too ill. And this is some of the issue that people have when they are looking to actually go to places where they can choose when they want to die as well, that there is a limit of when when you’re able to travel and airlines will not take you. So it’s important to actually, if that is an option, it is something that people want to do is to go home somewhere to die.

Kim: [00:15:05] Ok, so kind of like late stage pregnancy, if you show up in a wheelchair with oxygen, something or other, they might ask some more questions.

Cath: [00:15:15] Yeah, exactly. And you may not, you may get a No, that you’re not allowed to. And then that’s kind of a complexity that you have to work out how you resolve that, kind of emotionally, what you’re going to do.

Kim: [00:15:29] So would you say that’s primarily based on your physical appearance? When they see you show up at the gate, then they would go Hmmmm. Or is there something else at play?

Cath: [00:15:39] Sometimes it comes up when you… I mean, it’s a bit pointless if you’re going to be dying anyway, but you won’t get, you won’t be able to get any insurance potentially for doing that. So if you spend an awful lot of money on a flight and then find that you’re not allowed to use it, you’re going to … like it’s a difficult thing with insurance.

Cath: [00:16:00] But yeah, generally, I mean, if you turn up on a plane with additional needs, the airline generally wants to know about it. Because it’s their staff and the people that are in their care that are going to be in the air with you for however many hours. And also they need to know who on the plane is actually physically able. And if you turn up in a wheelchair, you’ve got to be able to actually get off, out of the wheelchair and get down the plane. And there’s all kinds of things that they’re not going to want to take responsibility for. For the potential impact of what their staff have to deal with, but also then the impact that it could have on other passengers who are in their care. There’s kind of seen to be too many things that could could go wrong. So. I don’t know what the exact timing is of it, but I do know that there are limits.

Kim: [00:16:47] That makes sense, but would not necessarily be something that would occur to me in advance. Yeah.

Cath: [00:16:52] No. And also, it’s not something that if you’ve suddenly got a diagnosis and unfortunately you’ve got a short diagnosis, you may not have enough time to suddenly go. Like by the time you’ve got your head around what’s happening, you may have actually already be too late. So these are also the kind of conversations that are important to have in terms of preplanning with family and letting people know that this is what you want to happen.

For the preplanning, are there any particular documents or resources online or books or things that can help you walk through those conversations that you recommend or that you think are especially good?

Cath: [00:17:30] Yeah, there are. I might come back to you on that, on the exact. There is I mean a lot of resources out there about having conversations with people. In this country there’s an organization called Dying Matters, and every year they have a week of events and they have death cafes and they have a lot of that kind of stuff. Every country, well, maybe not, but I would expect that a lot of countries, a lot of the developed world would have such things. But it just depends on how comfortable that country is with talking about death, really.

Kim: [00:18:05] I’ve done a little bit of looking before for advanced care planning, and I found something that I really like. I just thought I would ask you what you like.

Cath: [00:18:12] I mean, in this country, Dying Matters is fantastic. And there are charities here that look after cancer patients. Like Macmillan Care is a big one here. And they’re good for generic stuff, but there may be some things that need to be more specific to certain countries. But like you say, you can talk to an embassy and see what the requirements are, that then help you form a conversation with family based on the things that are non-negotiable because of the country that you’re within.

Kim: [00:18:39] Yeah, that’s a good idea. You talked about grieving in the way that you need to and being the way that you need to be. 

Are there any general or specific tips or guidelines on things that can help with grieving and bereavement and that whole side of things?

Cath: [00:18:59] Yeah, very much so What I would say is that however you grieve is completely normal. Everyone grieves differently. We cannot expect someone to cry and then kind of be like forcing them, saying you should be crying and they don’t want to and they can’t. And crying, actually, while it’s a big relief, can also be quite scary because it really lets everything out. So understanding that we all grieve completely differently and what’s right for you is not necessarily right for somebody else. 

It’s also really important to understand that grief is not something that has a set trajectory, shall we say. So it’s a long process and your body, you need to physically experience it in your body to kind of expel it. So it’s something that you actually, you can’t intellectualize it. You have to physically feel it. And your body has to get used to the fact that there is this difference. And that physicality of it makes it a completely consuming experience.

Cath: [00:20:05] So what I would always say to people is, don’t be too hard on yourself. That level of transition is enormous, particularly if it’s someone that’s very, very close to you. And to understand also that because it’s still a taboo and people have trouble talking about it, that people always say, you learn who your friends are when someone dies. And it’s very true that often people will drift away and won’t come near you. And you expect that they would have been the one person that would, and you can get hurt. 

But as much as, if you can, it’s quite good to remember that everybody deals with grief and the idea of death differently. And some people can’t cope with it at all. And it may be bringing up their own things that happened to them in the past. Or they just don’t know what to say to you, so they don’t say anything, and then it gets too long, and then they get awkward and they don’t then come to talk to you. And suddenly you’ve had three months of silence from your best friend and you’re really feeling really annoyed at them. So it’s trying to understand that other people will be dealing with something differently as well.

Cath: [00:21:06] There are some other things. Like you can do things like keening. Keening it’s spelt K-E-E-N-I-N-G and it’s like wailing basically Actually there are music tracks that you can get to do it to. But you wail for the person. So you’re physically expressing that grief rather than keeping it within your body. And that can be incredibly powerful when when grief is quite raw, to physically kind of voice it. And it’s phrases that you just say over and over again.

Cath: [00:21:37] And the other thing is, I understand it, but it always surprises me that: when someone dies, it’s quite normal for people to think that that relationship, therefore, has finished. And they’re gone, the physical body is gone and they’re gone. But if you can work out a way to continue that emotional relationship with that person, there’s less of a finality. So, yes, they’re not going to come and sit next to you and have a cup of coffee. But you can talk to them while you’re having a cup of coffee. You can look at the newspaper, say, look so-and-so, did you see that? And you keep up that kind of relationship.

[00:22:12] And so my wife’s mother, she finds us parking spaces. We’re like, we always thank mother when we find a parking space. And we do certain things like that that just… we feel that sense of them still being there, even though they’re not physically there. And I would also say to work out things that are physical rituals, things that you need to do to honor that person. Whether it’s just having a photo of them on your desk or you light a candle every morning in their name, or. Do, find rituals and patterns that actually help you kind of feel like you’re honoring that person.

Kim: [00:22:49] That’s lovely. 

What about, do you have any particular suggestions for when you have a strong sense of rituals that you want to be part of or things you would like to do, and the circumstances don’t allow it? How to kind of get through that extra barrier?

Cath: [00:23:08] Yeah, if you’ve got time, like, you know when a funeral is going to happen, but, you know, you can’t get there, one of the things that I’ve done quite a lot since I’ve been living in another country is that I get someone in the family to record. Ask if they can record the funeral for me. Or I will get the ake where there are speeches. So I want to hear what the speeches are about that person So I can have a sense of saying goodbye to that person. So there’s a level of ritual that when I’m ready, I can sit down and say goodbye to that person. 

I also, when my uncle died, I sent my cousin a message and I asked her to tap on his coffin as she walked out and to say, “go well” and to kind of just do an act for me that I couldn’t do myself. And that’s been very kind of relevant these days with Covid and people not being able to be there and asking doctors to say goodbye or can you say this or can you….

Cath: [00:24:02] We need to say these things. Death is actually so significant for the living, because you’re the one that’s left with that unresolved situation and you want to know that you can do what you need to do. So I would also say that I would, sometimes it’s quite hard to do a cultural ritual if you’re living in a country that doesn’t, like I know for for things like Eid and things like that, where people are in countries where everybody’s celebrating it and everyone’s around the family comes and all these things happen. 

If you’re in a country where it’s just you and your partner and it’s more lonesome, create those rituals yourself. Get friends and invite them to experience what this means for you. Or you could have a meal that’s in honor of the family member who’s died. And you have everybody come over, but you also set a place for the person that would have been there that isn’t there. And I know some people think that might be a bit kind of morbid, but actually energetically for that person, they’re still in the room. It’s like the elephant in the room that if we’re all sitting there and there’s no chair, the person that means the most to the one who’s died, they they’re almost…. You know how you can be lonely in a room where you’re there and you’re all socializing, enjoying, but all you’re thinking about is that this person is not there.

Cath: [00:25:25] And if you put a place setting for them and refer as though they’re, they are here. And refer and use their name. Then there’s a level of introducing them into your daily life and how you continue a daily relationship with them. And I know that’s not a ritual per say, but it can be very powerful in terms of acknowledging that person and having a system that helps you. 

So I. That side I have some shelves and I have a picture of my father. And every time I come into my office, I don’t say it out loud, but just in my head I say, “oh, Hi Dad, morning” or just little things that just you don’t even think about doing. But they’re just routine little things. And it’s personal to you. You don’t have to be doing a big set religious or culturally appropriate ritual. If it’s what you want to do, then do it. It could be sitting in the garden having a cup of coffee in the sun. Whatever it is that allows you to connect with that person for however, a few minutes, as brief or as long as it needs to be.

What about helping younger kids and older kids with these topics? That’s big in itself, but then it feels like it would be even much bigger when you’re in the middle of grief yourself and having a hard time just coping, and then to try to help and shepherd along a younger person who doesn’t have the same perspective.

Cath: [00:26:52] Yeah, yeah, you’re right, it’s a big subject. I think. There’s kind of general rules across all age groups, but I guess as a general rule, I would say a few things.

Cath: [00:27:04] The first is to actually model behavior and allow children to understand that grief is normal. So children are very, they may not have the words for things, but they’re very aware if something’s going on. And if we don’t talk about it and we want to protect our children from mentioning the D word, shall we say, death or dying, then it actually can be more confusing for them than actually just being honest and talking about what’s happening. And obviously being honest is age appropriate. But they pick up on that awkwardness. And we’re putting adult awkwardness onto kids that often aren’t awkward about these things. And they will just talk about things matter of factly. They might start to introduce it into their play like it’s. We add our own kind of baggage to this stuff. So it’s about being honest with them, particularly with small kids, letting them know that it’s okay to share and that emotions are okay.

Cath: [00:28:01] The other thing with small children is that they often will take on a protective role and they won’t talk about their own emotions because they don’t want to upset you if you’re the one that’s the kind of person grieving. So it’s important to actually show them that grief is normal. Not necessarily share the full outpouring of what you’re coping with, but let them know that you’re upset as well and kind of just talk them through it.

Cath: [00:28:25] The other thing with small children, particularly, is that as adults, we don’t often like to use the word “died” or that someone is “dead” because it’s quite a harsh word for us. So we will use things like “passed on” or “gone to sleep.” But these words are actually confusing for kids, it’s not definite enough. And so there are people who will say, “oh, granny’s gone to sleep” and then that poor child is terrified at night that if they go to sleep, they’re going to not wake up in the morning. So it’s just being very conscious about the language that we use.

Cath: [00:28:59] I would also say if the child if someone the person who’s died is particularly close to the child, it can be quite good to contact the school and let them know that this child is going through grief. That they may not know if it’s someone back home.

Cath: [00:29:13] I would also suggest with children, which I know can be quite controversial, but to not exclude them from funeral services or saying goodbye. Because they too, just as much need to be able to say goodbye to someone if it’s someone that they knew. But also if we exclude them, there’s a potential that they may think they’re to blame or they are guilty of something. Or that their emotions aren’t as important and they get excluded. So if we include them in a way that actually shows that it’s normal to be there and it’s normal to cry, it’s normal to not cry, whatever they need, then it’s a much less scary thing to be to be dealing with.

Cath: [00:29:53] The other thing I would also say is it’s quite important to keep up normal routines because it can provide a sense of security, particularly for small kids you need that security and not, you don’t want a change of routine to create anxiety. So if you’re not having a good day and your friend has to go and pick them up from school, that’s absolutely fine. But make sure the child knows that so-and-so is going to be coming to pick up and not you. And just think about the kind of confusion and anxiety that they may be having.

[00:30:24] The other thing I want to say also was particularly with teens, teens are like another whole species aren’t they? Like. So what I would say is if someone very close to (it could be a sibling or it could be like grandparent or parent), teens might not actually talk to you much, but… And they haven’t forgotten. Like as a parent, don’t be hurt by the fact that they’re not talking to you. They haven’t forgotten. They just often need space to process things themselves. And if it’s someone that’s a particularly important person to them, like a sibling or a close family member, it can be quite useful also to contact their friend’s parents just to let the parents know what their child’s friend is dealing with and so that they’re aware of the circumstance. So if that child comes over to the house or whatever, there’s a level of just understanding of what’s going on and being able to support that child if need be.

Cath: [00:31:17] And it’s just about reassuring children, encouraging them to talk, telling them that they’re not to blame. Some kids will actually feel that they’re to blame for something. If they had an argument with someone before they died, or. There’s a lot of complex stuff that goes on.

[00:31:32] And a really, really good practical task is to make a memory box. And a memory box is particularly powerful if you know that someone’s dying, rather than just having the sudden news that someone’s gone. And the box is photos, writings, music, drawings, whatever, that actually reinforces the connection between that child and the adult. And because it’s not so intellectualized, the emotional part of it is actually just allows them to express themselves and a reminder of what this person meant to them. And it allows you to also open the box when you’re ready. So if rather than being consumed by grief all the time, it allows you to actually say, ah, actually, I’m feeling strong today, I’m going to, I want to have a look at this. And you open the box and then you close it again And you go back to kind of normal life, shall we say, so that you can start to compartmentalize your grief so you’re not consumed by it constantly. And it helps you last the distance sometimes. And these kind of boxes are very good. If someone’s got a diagnosis, a terminal diagnosis, that kids can be involved in creating that box with the person that is going to be dying.

Kim: [00:32:46] Yeah, that’s a really good idea. My kids also haven’t experienced very much death of people who are close to them. They have had some pets, there have been some animals that have died. And when my kids are very young, it’s so abstract. They really don’t understand what it means. I don’t think I’ve used confusing words. Well who knows what I may have said in the past, but I. I find it difficult to explain what it is in a way that gets past the abstractness but isn’t scary. One of my daughters got very worried about dying. She she’ll just come to me at random times and cry and tell me she’s afraid of dying. Like her concept of it is that she would still be in her body somehow, but be paralyzed. And I don’t know how to explain to her. I’ve tried a number of times to explain that that’s not what it is, but it’s not getting through.

Cath: [00:33:42] Yeah, it is incredibly difficult, and I know people will, I mean, if you’re a religious person, you can say they’re in heaven. But then like, what is that? Where is heaven? I want to go to heaven. And it’s a very different way of looking at it. And also, if it’s a removed place, like even if it’s “They’re in the sky” or all those kind of awful things. Like when people say “gone to a better place,” all that kind of. I shouldn’t, well, I say awful. But I think I just showed me up, really.

Cath: [00:34:13] But those kind of concepts can be quite hard for children to grasp because they’re so abstract. And it’s like, well, if I’m not a good child, am I going to be sent to that other place? Or whatever. So I think all you can do is just provide space for children to ask questions and know it’s safe to ask questions and actually just be honest and say, look, when when we die, I don’t know what happens. This is one of the big questions of life, is that our body doesn’t work, our heart stops. We’re no longer there. But I mean, you can take it, take it abstract. And if you’re talking about if spiritual stuff is an option for children, it can be explored, like, what do you think happens? And actually just, you don’t actually have to have answers either, because I don’t think a lot of adults do either, really, have answers.

Kim: [00:35:04] Very true.

Cath: [00:35:05] And I know that’s not particularly helpful, but it’s kind of the truth, really.

Kim: [00:35:10] Yeah, yeah, I think I think the main thing, though, is just making sure that they don’t feel like their question was unwelcome or that it’s so uncomfortable that we’re not going to talk about it. And then they come to some different conclusion because they’re going to make a connection one way or another, and we can help them make the right connection. Or

Cath: [00:35:28] Absolutely.

Kim: [00:35:29] if we don’t, they’re going to make a wrong connection.

Cath: [00:35:31] Yeah, and that goes with I mean, that goes with everything, doesn’t it, in parenting? That if you want, what you want your children to know is it’s like, do you want someone else to be telling them or do you want to be the one that’s actually telling them what you want them to know? And I think kids, are… We talk about resilience all the time with kids, and they are incredibly resilient. But at the same time, they’re also often very clever. And if they worried about something, they’ll work out their own whole idea of how they’re going to make a solution to something. And actually, there’s a huge amount of stress that can go into that for children, something that they hold. So if we’re open and honest and actually talk about it and just say it means that you will never be able to see them again, like that, just be honest. But we don’t have the answers. So I think it’s difficult. I might have to Google that one and come back to you on what other people recommend because yeah. It’s, yeah, it’s a tricky one.

Kim: [00:36:32] In my last episode, I was speaking with someone about birth and we were talking all about the role of a doula, and she said that a doula can also specialize in loss. And you said that there’s such a thing as a death doula. Can you tell us more about that?

Cath: [00:36:49] Yeah, yes, there are. There’s death doulas. In the U.K. there’s a term that is used that is called a soul midwife. And the idea is that you help someone to die. And that sounds really wrong way of saying it. But you’re there to support that person, particularly if family members can’t be there. And the movement was started by someone called Felicity Warner. And a very good book, if people want to explore that themselves, is that she wrote a book called The Soul Midwives’ Handbook: The Holistic and Spiritual Care of the Dying. It’s basically a handbook. So like you said at the beginning, if it’s something that you want to do yourself and care for your own loved ones, there is this handbook. And in the UK, there’s quite a few soul midwives around. The best way, really, is you just, it’s good old Google again, is just actually look up death doulas. And I know that Felicity started the soul midwives because she did not want anybody to be dying alone. And there’s a huge movement here within certain circles to have more and more people not dying alone. And often that’s just, it’s also emotional support for family members who can’t do things because they’re too close and it’s emotionally difficult.

Kim: [00:38:07] How is this different from hospice?

Cath: [00:38:10] It’s not in the sense that you can have a death doula who might come into a hospice where someone is. But if a family is not coping with someone dying or they’re struggling to sit by the bed or they’ve got to work and they want to make sure that someone’s there with their person all the time, they can get a midwife or death doula to come in and sit with them. While a hospice is a, there will be volunteers in a hospice who can help. But they’ve got a lot of other people that they might be looking after. And if you employ a death doula, then that person is there specifically for your person’s needs. And it can be just sitting there and talking to them. Because sometimes if someone hasn’t died but they haven’t got long to live, there’s often conversations that they want to have that their family aren’t able to hear because it’s around how they want their funeral to be or emotional things that they find difficult. So sometimes it can be conversations around money. It’s like money and death, things that people don’t like to talk about.

Kim: [00:39:13] Yeah.

Cath: [00:39:13] So it’s talking about money and what they want done or what’s going to happen to me when I die. So death doulas are often informed about all the processes as well. There’s a lot of fear around when someone is cremated. People think, will often say, do I get all of the ashes or am I mixed in with someone else? And it’s like, and I can tell you all now, you will absolutely just get your own ashes the way it’s done. I’ve seen it happen. I know what happens.

Cath: [00:39:40] So they’re there for emotional support. They’re there for support that’s not medical because you get to a point where every conversation becomes around your medical issue. And actually that can be really tiring. And to be able to have a conversation with someone who can tell you things that are not in a medical setting, that could be just sitting, having a coffee in your lounge. They’re just like an amazing spiritual, holistic support. They don’t have to be spiritual, but they can be this kind of general support for a family and for the person that is terminally ill.

Cath: [00:40:13] And they can show you how to look after somebody yourself. You don’t have to use a funeral director. You can actually dig a hole yourself. You can do your own funeral. You can keep the person … In this country, at least, you can keep the person at home. A lot of people don’t realize these things and they get kind of heavied into having to go with what the normal thing is. And actually, I don’t think there’s anything more beautiful than actually caring for the person or people that you love most and actually doing it. It’s a real privilege to look after somebody at that most vulnerable moment and that most important of transitions. It’s incredibly sacred, sacred moment. So, yeah.

Kim: [00:40:55] And the work that you do around this, you don’t call yourself a death doula.

Cath: [00:41:00] No.

Kim: [00:41:00] What is the work that you do?

Cath: [00:41:04] I call myself a shamanic practitioner, but I help people a lot with releasing kind of emotional wounds in a spiritual way, but through things around bereavement, things that happen to us as children. And I have a, I used to think everything spiritual was like, all not true and it was, everyone was just being taken in by complete, like, as I say, pardon my language but, a crock of …. So I’ve actually called my business Crock of …-Free Spiritual Guidance. Because it – just say it how it is really – because with all seriousness, things started to happen to me that I could not explain and I needed to explore what spiritual meant to me. And it’s taken me on a journey of shamanic training and learning about basically universal energy and how we as humans, we’re full of energy. And how you help people go through grief, how you help them to release wounds that are difficult, not just grief wounds. So I have clients who come to me and I do shamanic journeys and I ask for guidance from the universe, shall we say, and help people. And it’s incredibly rewarding for me. And to see the growth in people and the relief and the peace that comes off people is just astonishing. To see people from not really… Really not coping when you meet them, to walking out the door in a few months time, kind of glowing. So, yeah, it’s good. It’s really rewarding work for me. And I’m not immune to the irony that I used to think it was all a crock of …. But yeah. I live my life by it now and I’ve got a kind of five, six clients at the moment.

Kim: [00:42:56] Oh, nice.

Cath: [00:42:57] Yeah.

Kim: [00:42:58] Ok. I don’t know much about shamanism. Can you explain what, what does shamanic mean?

Cath: [00:43:05] Yeah, the word shaman is a Siberian word, and it refers to the indigenous healers and kind of wise people in the communities. So I don’t actually call myself a shaman because I’m not. I do not have a traditional lineage. I haven’t gone through the initiation processes of a traditional shaman. But I use shamanic practices and kind of energetic practices to do the work that I do. And although the word shaman is a Siberian word, there are wise people in all indigenous communities. So you have the healers, the medicine person, the truth sayer, the storyteller, those kind of people in all indigenous communities. So First Nations in America, Canada, Aboriginal people in Australia. And it’s about, it’s about tapping into that universal energies and using that to help people help themselves, essentially.

Cath: [00:44:04] And we all have that sense. So it’s like there’s the dodgy man comes into the room that we want to keep at arm’s length. What is that, that we pick up on, that gut reaction? That’s the stuff that I work with. So I don’t believe in God – man on a cloud – kind of thing. But I believe that we are all part of an energy. We all have energy within us. And it’s about making your body and your mind to be as whole and as clean as possible to live, to live your purpose, essentially. And if I can help people work through those wounds, then that’s what I enjoy doing. Yeah. Shamanism, it can be quite a loaded word because there are a lot of people in the West that will call themselves a shaman, and they’re not, basically.

Kim: [00:44:51] Ok.

Cath: [00:44:52] So, yeah, I don’t think. It’s the kind of word that has been taken by people and used in ways that – misappropriation basically. So I’m very careful to not say that I’m a shaman because I’m not. But I do the work I do and it helps people. And it’s good. It’s nice to help people.

Kim: [00:45:14] Yes, very good. If people want to find out more, where should they go?

Cath: [00:45:20] The best bet at the moment is to contact me through Drawn To A Story. My spiritual work is is launching more formally next year and there’ll be a website and everything. So at the moment, it’s better just to come to me through www.drawntoastory.com.

Kim: [00:45:38] Ok, very good.

Cath: [00:45:39] And I’m on all the usual social media places with the handle DrawnToAStory. So come say Hello.

Kim: [00:45:47] Ok, good. Thank you so very much. Really appreciate it.

Cath: [00:45:53] Thank you.

Kim: [00:45:55] It’s a tough topic, but I think it’s worth talking about for sure.

Cath: [00:45:58] Yeah, yeah, it is it’s a good subject to, um, to get over ourselves with.

Kim: [00:46:04] Yeah, we just have to kind of practice talking about it.

Cath: [00:46:08] Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Kim: [00:46:10] Ok, thank you.