Ep 12. Giving Birth Abroad, with Ana Cuchi Gracia

Coming Soon

This is the start of a series on major life transitions that happen to all of us but are magnified or complicated when we live abroad. Birth, death, menopause, moving to a new country and how to take care of our health during these upheavals, and I may do an episode on empty nest or sending our kids off to university.

I’m really excited to get this series kicked off. So without further ado, let’s start on the first in the series: talking about birth.

Kim: [00:00:00] All right. Today, I am bringing in Ana Cuchi Gracia. We are kind of kindred spirits in a way around a big topic for families overseas, which is giving birth. This is always a momentous occasion for any family, no matter where you are. And when you’re outside of your own country, every aspect of it is magnified. And Anna is putting together this project, which I love, called “My Birth Story Abroad.” She’s collecting birth stories from all kinds of women everywhere, any type of birth story.

[00:00:42] When I was preparing to give birth abroad, I read Ina May’s Guide to Childbirth, and it includes a wide range of birth stories from, “easy” to horrific. You know, just everything in between, all the different things that could go wrong or could go right, and how the mother and partner and everyone attending to her dealt with those things and worked through it. And I love hearing the variety of stories because no matter what happened, every story is beautiful. And I don’t say that in the sense that it’s only beautiful and we forget about the hard parts.

[00:01:26] Something that drives me crazy is when a mother has a difficult birth that was not the way she wanted it to go. And she’s expressing that. She’s upset that this is not what I wanted. And people sometimes respond, “well, at least your baby is healthy. That’s what’s important. That’s the only thing that’s important.” That drives me crazy because, yes, of course, we’re happy that the baby is there and well, things turned out OK in the end. But those feelings that the mother has are real and they deserve space. And if they don’t get processed and worked through, then they just kind of linger and fester. And there’s a sense of dissatisfaction that will come up again later when she is preparing for the next birth.

[00:02:10] So when I say every birth story is beautiful, it’s because there’s a redeeming factor and there is beauty AND there are difficult parts. So I love this project that Ana is working on. We’re going to have her talk a bit about that. Before we get into that, let’s give Ana a chance to introduce herself.

[00:02:33] So can you tell us a little bit about your expat saga, the different places you’ve lived and worked, and a little bit of your story.

Ana: [00:02:45] Ok, so thank you, before I start, for the opportunity of having this conversation with you. It’s been very enriching. I really enjoyed talking to you.

Ana: [00:03:00] So a bit of my background. I was born and raised in Spain. And when I was 19, I was granted a scholarship to study abroad. And I spent one year in France and I traveled to southern Spain to work in an American naval base as a baby sitter for this baby. And then I fell in love with a U.S. Marine. Things didn’t work out in the end after a couple of years. But anyway, I also traveled to the US at one point to work as an interpreter, because that’s my university background. My bachelor’s is in translation and interpretation. I think that same year I moved to India. I finally stayed in India for five years. And I went back to Spain and I spent one year in Spain trying to see, you know, there was something for me. And then I found this job in Myanmar. So after five years in India, I moved to Myanmar, to Yangon, and I stayed there for two years.

Ana: [00:04:03] And then towards the end of my second year, my grandma fell sick. And it made me think and reflect on life and being so far away from family. And maybe I should go back to Europe to be closer to Spain. So I started to look for jobs in Europe. And then I found the job at the American International School here in Budapest. And I moved to Hungary without knowing anyone. And here I’ve been for the past six years now. So I guess that’s a bit of the chronology.

Kim: [00:04:40] So you went to Hungary as an international school teacher and you did that for several years, right?

Ana: [00:04:46] Yes. So I got my job in 2014 and I worked there at that school for four years, and now it’s been two years I’m not there anymore.

Kim: [00:04:58] And now you’re married with a child and one on the way.

Ana: [00:05:03] Yes. So we’ve been together for five years now, I guess, and we have a child who’s three and a half years old and I’m pregnant of our second child and I’m due in January 2021.

Kim: [00:05:17] Very exciting.

Ana: [00:05:18] Yes.

Kim: [00:05:19] So when we talked the other day, you mentioned that you are a natural connector. That’s just the way your mind works, that when you speak with someone you’re thinking about, oh, all these connections. And I could introduce you to this person and that person. And it made me… That’s not my natural tendency so much. I mean, it doesn’t just bubble out of me that way. And so I was kind of interested to explore these topics around building community, building a support network, building connections and how that changes from being a single person to then maybe even a couple, but then how that changes then when you have kids.

Ana: [00:06:00] So I’ve always been a fan of social like social media and online platforms. I think it’s, I always say that the same people that live on Earth live on the Internet, and it doesn’t need to be that like how there are these theories of people being fake and people pretending they’re someone they’re not and all these things. Sure. But those people are real, so you can also bump into them in the street, right? Like, for me, it doesn’t change anything that you meet someone online or in a bar, other than the fact that obviously you see them in real straight away. And that’s important. So I would suggest not spending a lot of time talking with someone, but rather meeting them quickly. Now, looking back and with experience, that would be my like, OK, if you feel a connection with someone, go ahead and meet them in person. Don’t Build up a relationship online. That’s from my experience.

[00:06:55] So. I feel like with the years things have continued the same way. Like I’m a big fan of Facebook, Facebook groups. And I would always try and find, for example, I’m from Spain, right? So Spaniards in… I was in India, so in Bangalore, for example. It didn’t exist, at the time at least. But then expats. You always find an expat group wherever you go. So that’s always been an option. And then luckily I’ve always become friends with colleagues and that’s usually opened up the doors to more friends, more circles. But yes, I’m a big fan of online connections. Like, look, you are one of them. So I think they’re great.

Kim: [00:07:44] You’ve been to several countries where you were a single person and had to make your entire support network on your own, and now you’re living in your husband’s country. How is that experience different for you, building your support network and getting things done and navigating life as an expat when you’re in your partner’s country?

Ana: [00:08:07] So it’s actually not been any different than before in many ways. It may be a bit different now, but it wasn’t in the beginning because when I first came here, I was single. I didn’t know him.

Ana: [00:08:18] So for that first year, I was still on my own, and I guess building up that support network by myself and he became part of my support network. But now that we’ve been together for four years, it’s true that I’ve been delegating things.

[00:08:37] So he’s not social. He’s the very opposite in many ways. So I feel like that we are so different that that’s how we actually complement each other, like by being so different. What he adds to the table, I don’t add and and vice versa. So… I am social and I am definitely social and I need people and I need my people, if anything, I don’t need lots of people, but I need my people. And my husband, like my husband could spend the rest of his life in a cave. And he, and if you meet him, he’s very pleasant and he’s very he’s friendly and he’s really nice. And most people really like him and falling in love with him. But you’ll probably meet him once and he’ll never call you again. Like he’s that kind of friend. He’s like he has a very, very few friends and he hardly stays in touch with them. He’s horrible.

Kim: [00:09:43] I think he might be a little bit similar to me because during the isolation period, my husband, after about two or three days, he’s kind of itching to get out of the house and go and just get out of the house, get a change of scenery. And it takes me about, almost three weeks to get to that point. I love people, but I don’t have very well established habits to stay in touch. And so it tends to be just, when I bump into them, I’m so happy to see them. But it takes a long time before I realize that, oh, I’m really missing this thing. I need to put the effort in to make it happen.

Ana: [00:10:20] Selfishly, he’s been a very good support person in terms of getting things done with like paperwork or dealing with banks or just getting ahold of people and getting things fixed. So that’s been I mean, that’s been a positive, I would say, but definitely not with um… He hasn’t had any impact in my social network, besides him, of course. I mean, he’s like the pillar of my of my support system, obviously, which is huge. But yeah.

Kim: [00:10:57] And how is it different building networks now that you have kids versus before you had kids?

Ana: [00:11:06] So I think it’s actually completely different because before it was just like, oh, I meet someone, I like you, let’s be friends, let’s meet again, let’s travel somewhere. And so I was making decisions based on just me.

[00:11:25] And also what’s been interesting for me in this transformation (single to mom) has been also the fact that before I wasn’t really craving or, I wasn’t really missing Spanish people or Spanish culture, so much, like in terms that I had to seek for it. Like I’ve never been the kind of person who wants to have Spanish friends and stick to other Spanish people. Like, I don’t care if you’re Spanish. I think obviously it brings more to the table because there’s so many connections you can make in addition to having similar personalities or matching personalities. But I was never really looking, like intentionally looking, for other Spanish people.

[00:12:01] And after I became a mom, I started to think like, oh, it would really nice to go back to Spain and raise my child there. Like, Spain is a super child friendly, family friendly country. Very family oriented, very easy going atmosphere, safe, beautiful, blah, blah, blah. Of course, my country! And but before that I was just like I want to see the world. I want to go from one place to another. So that was also one thing that started to change in me. Like I wasn’t really craving the, you know, the traveller’s bug or the expat bug so much. I felt like I wanted to go back to my roots, sort of say. And then I started to feel like I wanted to have…. Like your mom brain, because, like, you start losing memory and you start functioning in a different way. And I felt like I wanted things easy. Like I didn’t want more complication in my life. And I wanted to have friends I could talk to in Spanish or Catalan (because I also speak Catalan) without having to make the effort of speaking in a foreign language. And I wanted people to get me without the double standards or the jokes that sometimes maybe I’m translating from Spanish and they don’t make any sense in English, or the humor, who knows. And I felt like I wanted that easiness that comes with speaking your mother tongue. And then I started when I felt like I had, I needed a support system that was in Spanish. And then I created a WhatsApp group that started with a few Spanish speaking friends. We’ve been building it like friend of a friend kind of thing. And it’s just nice to have that.

Kim: [00:13:46] Mm-hmm.

Ana: [00:13:48] And then obviously after I had Adam, then I was thinking a lot about not only how I can find my support system or how I can grow it or how I can strengthen it. But how about other moms? Like, how do they feel about like, how do they feel about being here? How can I build something together that can support other moms? And then My Birth Story Abroad. I love storytelling. I’m all about storytelling and listening to other people’s stories. I always want to hear about other people’s stories. I want to know what brought them to where they are, what makes them them? Why? How? When? Like all the questions.

Kim: [00:14:35] And this is tied in as well with your work becoming a doula and becoming a nurse as well?

Ana: [00:14:41] Yes, so I feel definitely everything like looking back and as the time goes by, I’m able to reflect more on things and make more connections. In the beginning, it all started with me feeling like I needed a break from work. I had my maternity leave and I was back to school in August to start the new academic year in 2017. So Adam was born in March; I was back in August. I had just become a mom. I had a baby at home and I would leave the house at 7 in the morning and I would be back by 5:00 p.m. And that’s 10 hours away from a baby that you’ve wanted your whole life. And I really felt like I was going to be the mom who would go back to work and have both, you know, like go back to work and then back to my child. And that was OK. And I really don’t think: by no means I’m trying to say that this is the best choice. But this was my choice. This was my craving. It didn’t work for me. I tried it. I went back to work. I worked for one year. And during that year I felt like that wasn’t my path anymore. And I needed a break.

[00:15:52] And at the time, I didn’t know what I was going to do with my life. I didn’t have a plan. I just knew that that situation wasn’t working out for me. Luckily, I could make that choice. It wasn’t an easy choice because my salary was almost double than my husband’s at the time. So we had a very comfortable life when I was working at that school. And then we became OK, people who can be grateful and don’t have anything to complain about, but really we didn’t have the, oh, let’s go here. Let’s buy that. But anyway, so that was a choice we we made, right. That I could quit my my job.

[00:16:29] My husband was very supportive, very supportive. He saw that I was not happy actually, that I was in conflict. And so he said, yes, of course, take that break. And then at the time people have been mentioning to me that I would make a good doula and I would be a good doula. And I still remember the first time I heard the word, one of my American friends mentioned it. And I was like, doula what?

Kim: [00:16:53] Yeah, so for people who don’t know what a doula is, tell us.

Ana: [00:16:56] Ok, so a doula is a companion. So it differs, the role of a doula differs a bit in different countries, because in some countries doulas are more like birth advocates. But for example, in Spain, doula is regarded as a person, usually a woman, who would be by another woman’s side and would definitely… I think the common trait, I would say, for all doulas in the world is that you support mom’s choices You are there for whatever choices the mom wants to make. They are seen. They are heard, and hopefully they happen. But you’re not so much someone who would like make it happen because you’re not the person who is in power. The mom has the power. So you’re just there to be, and to inform the mother in whatever choices she’s thinking of making.

Kim: [00:17:53] During childbirth.

Ana: [00:17:56] Throughout the whole process. Actually, you can be a doula from the moment there is an intention of becoming a parent. So you can do what you can be a doula during a fertility process, you can be a doula for adoption, you can be a doula for childbirth, and you can be a doula for postpartum. And you can be a doula for loss as well, which is one of the hidden topics.

Kim: [00:18:19] Yeah, Ok.

Kim: [00:18:20] It covers the whole spectrum. You can be a doula for I mean, any time that a mother feels the need of having that person next to her. So, yeah, that’s a doula. Usually it’s someone obviously who is trained and who has the knowledge on the different processes in motherhood, whether it’s childbirth or whether it’s adoption or whether it’s everything really. It could be surrogacy as well. There’s doulas who are specialized in surrogacy, doulas specialized in loss, like I said, postpartum conception, pregnancy. So, yes.

Kim: [00:19:00] You said there’s some stigma around the word or the concept. Can you tell us about that?

Ana: [00:19:05] Yes, so many people think that doulas are midwives, for example. Yes, stigma and misconceptions, definitely. And in most cases it’s due to lack of information. So people have built up their notions of what a doula may be. And for one, a small one is that many people think that doulas are only there for childbirth and like I said, doulas can be there in any of the processes of becoming a parent. And I want to say a parent and not mother, because I could be a doula for an adoption process of two men. You know, if it’s a gay couple and they are adopting a child, and then you could be their doula for an adoption process. Or you could be a doula for a surrogacy process. Right. There’s like I said, you know, there’s lots of taboo and stigma around doulas because of where our presence is. Which is, like I said, you know, it can take many forms and many paths, depending on that particular family’s choices. You can be a doula wherever your heart is set on and wherever you are strong at. Right. Some some doulas like birth and something doulas are there for postpartum support and some doulas are there for fertility, in vitro processes, whatnot. Some doulas specialize in women’s cycles, like being aware of your menstruation and connecting with your cycle, and just seeing where your fertility window is through the natural way, process, your biology.

Kim: [00:20:48] Ok, well, I definitely learned something. Because I knew about childbirth doulas and postpartum, but to realize that there are so many different ways to have a companion by your side, I love that.

Ana: [00:21:00] Yes, definitely.

Kim: [00:21:01] People were telling you that you would be a good doula, and so you started investigating.

Ana: [00:21:07] Yes, so that’s where my interest began, because at the time, I had not heard from, I hadn’t heard that word before. So I was like, doula what? So there were many friends that I made in Myanmar that had their children there. Right. And I’ve always been attracted to babies and children really of all ages. But there’s something about babies, I would say. I mean, for me, it’s babies. And then old people. Like I go to to the two extremes in life, you know, so babies and then old people fascinate me both. A friend would have a baby and then you’re, like, so comfortable holding that baby or helping the mom get something done and just being there. They started to call me Baby Whisperer. And that’s when because of so many of them having kids at the time, then they would say. That’s when they first said you would make a good doula. And then I was like, what is a doula? And that’s when I started to, like they explained it to me. But then I started to look it up and then I started to follow some accounts on Instagram and Facebook. And just like, that’s how I started to learn, like what doulas do.

[00:22:21] And back to that stigma and misconception that people have about doulas. I think one of the big ones is 1, the fact that people think that doulas are only there during childbirth and 2, that doulas attend those births. Like they are some sort of midwives, but only like the natural way. So doulas would attend births and they would not use, like, medicine. Right. And that’s not true.

[00:22:49] A doula is not a midwife. To be an active participant, you know what I mean of that birth. Otherwise, if you’re a doula, you’re there for the mother. You may be there for the partner as well. But, you know, there’s the midwife. There should be a midwife, or a doctor if a doctor is required. But doulas don’t give birth, as in they don’t.

Kim: [00:23:13] Yeah, they don’t deliver the child.

Ana: [00:23:15] They don’t deliver the child. Yes. And again, I think many medical professionals are still not used to working with doulas because it’s sort of relatively new profession. And so I think we haven’t learned to work together, yet. It’s a process and it takes time like anything else. And some medical professionals would see doulas as threats. And like I always say, I feel like if you’re a good doula, you should be sort of invisible but present. Right. So so you should be invisible to everyone else except for that mom and that partner that you may be supporting, but you should not interfere with what doctors are doing.

Kim: [00:24:02] Yeah, I was very interested to hear about the dynamic of having a doula present. That there’s a big difference in outcomes, much more positive outcomes,

Ana: [00:24:14] Yes.

Kim: [00:24:14] Just with the simple fact of having another person there witnessing what is happening. And you talked about some doctors feeling threatened. But there is a difference when there is another person there who’s a witness. It’s not the patient, but it’s someone who is watching what’s happening. And somehow, even if doctors have the best intentions to begin with, it makes a difference in the outcomes. And I just found that to be really fascinating.

Ana: [00:24:44] Definitely. Mm hmm.

Kim: [00:24:45] Dynamic and made me feel a lot better about having someone with me.

Ana: [00:24:49] Yes, definitely, I feel like, if anything, I mean, besides the fact that there are statistics, there are now studies and statistics that prove. Even the World Health Organization has some statistics on how beneficial having a doula is at birth. And it’s not and I feel like this for me is very important to say, because it’s not the doula’s work, it’s not the doula’s magic, it’s not the doula’s doing. It’s always the mom’s doing. But we become sort of say, like, in my view of what being a doula is. But my understanding of what a doula should be is that we are another tool. We are a resource for that mom, but we’re not magic makers. We’re not decision makers. And in my again opinion and view of what a doula should be, we also, how do you say, we don’t advocate also, like I shouldn’t interfere. I should or I can make the mom feel comfortable and empowered enough that she can advocate for herself. Right. And she can defend herself. But I should not be taking her role in defending her or. If this makes any sense.

Kim: [00:26:02] Yeah, and I don’t know if that’s an evolving position within the field or if that’s something that there are different philosophies, but I’ve worked with different doulas who came down on a maybe a different part of the spectrum on that. How much they would speak.

Ana: [00:26:19] Mm-hmm.

Kim: [00:26:20] Versus talking in your ear and then letting you speak what it is that you wanted to say. Yeah.

Ana: [00:26:26] Yes, so I feel like I fall more in that category. Right. Didn’t you mention that? Should you say something? Maybe, right? Because you would know the mom. And its true that in this labor moment, in this labor bubble. In Spanish, we use the term “labor planet” actually, we call it the labor planet. So you are transported to this labor planet and you kind of stay in your own bubble. And sometimes you’re so much in your own bubble that you’re not thinking about anything else. And then maybe the doula may see something about to happen that the mom’s not seeing. But the doula knows that the mom didn’t want that to happen, sort of say. And then doula may interfere. But these are things that you should definitely agree beforehand. Right. Like talk to the mom. Obviously, you have to get to know each other very well and then say things like, given the information I have, if we get to a point where ___ should I, like, pop in your bubble for a minute and remind you that ___ this is what you wanted, or should I just let you be and then you make decisions completely on your own in that moment that may be different from what you’ve been saying or wanted. So I feel like definitely like anything in life. Obviously there has to be communication, but even more so with a relationship between a doula and the mom. Or a dad, again, depending on what we are talking about. But in birth, definitely, yes. I feel like things should be very clear and should be very like should have been talked definitely beforehand. Otherwise as a doula then if I didn’t know something then I just don’t act on it. I mean, in general you don’t act on anything as a doula. The mom will act on things.

Kim: [00:28:17] So when you finish your certification and then you’re doing some additional training beyond the doula training. At this stage, what is your vision of how you will, what you will do with that?

Ana: [00:28:31] That’s a very good question because, thank you. At some point, I really need to think about that because I’m so focused.

Kim: [00:28:39] It’s still evolving.

Ana: [00:28:40] Yes, yes, definitely. But I am so focused on building this platform and building a support network and just making connections, like the connection I’ve made with you. And I’m not talking a connection as I need a connection so I can get clients or I no, no. I’m talking about personal, professional connections, getting wisdom from other moms like you. I’m all about feeding myself with your stories. And that, for me is already very powerful. So I’m double… I feel honored. Not only that you’re sharing your stories with me, but that you’re also giving space to my voice and my experience. So to me, this conversation with you today is like the cherry on the top, because I was happy with just hearing your stories and sharing your story with the world and getting that wisdom.

[00:29:33] And so, yes, I completed my doula training and now I’ve been pursuing this, in British English it’s called maternity nurse. But I know in the US, the term changed about two or three years ago because a maternity nurse is not an actual nurse, is not a medical nurse. So in the US now you call maternity nurses “newborn care specialists.” So that’s the word we should be using. And I actually like the word more because it doesn’t create confusion with nurse.

Kim: [00:30:11] Yeah, OK.

Ana: [00:30:12] So that’s the other training I’m doing. I’m also being trained for the voice in birth. The voice in labor. La voz en el parto.

Kim: [00:30:24] Ok, what is that?

Ana: [00:30:25] Basically learning how to use your voice to channel all that energy in labor. In Spanish, it’s called la voz en el parto, which means literally the voice in labor. It has a lot to do and it’s super connected with the Carnatic chants, songs. And these are songs that I think originated in India. I don’t want to be saying things wrong, but I’m almost certain that it started in India and women would just get together around labor and chant sing. It’s vowel sounds, mostly vowel sounds, and there’s a lot of ah so “A” sounds and “O” sounds because those are open vowels anyway. So the theory is that your mouth and your vagina and your vulva, yeah because the vulva is at the end, right, are connected.

Kim: [00:31:24] Yeah, two, they’re both sphincters, so you open both sphincters together.

Ana: [00:31:28] And everything else becomes a channel where the voice travels. So it travels from your sort of say from your mouth to your vagina, and it eases the process of birth. It removes, it lowers pain. And it definitely allows you to… It’s kind of like hypnobirthing in a way, because it allows you to stay in your, in your zone, in your own planet, no? In that labor planet. So it’s a very powerful tool. It’s, again, quite unknown. And it can be used already from conception through pregnancy and definitely in labor. And it also helps in getting all the muscles back together after childbirth as well. So there is like the reverse process sort of say, using different vowels. So this time you wouldn’t use the open vowels, you would use the closed vowels, and then you get your muscles, your.

Kim: [00:32:29] Perineal.

Ana: [00:32:30] Yeah. So it helps with getting your perineal muscles back together as well.

Kim: [00:32:36] Fascinating.

Ana: [00:32:37] And it’s fascinating because the woman I’m doing the training with, she’s a psychologist. She’s also a musician, music therapist. She’s done a lot like she’s done many travels around the world to to talk to people in tribes that honor and support birth in a community, you know, as a group. Yes. So she has a very fascinating, a very interesting profile. In Spain she’s definitely THE person for this specific tool, for birth.

[00:33:11] Not such a conventional path, right? Like doula what? You have to explain what’s a doula. Maternity nurse? What’s a maternity nurse? Are you working in hospitals now? No, no, no, no. OK, newborn care specialist, I feel like it’s more self-explanatory. So what do you do? You’re a nanny I was talking to a doula friend the other day and we were like, we have to do a podcast or sort of like question and answer session about doula, nanny, babysitter, newborn care specialist, And what’s the other one? I don’t know, nurse, no maternity nurse. Like we have to explain. Because then. So you’re a nanny. So why would someone hire you? Why would I hire a maternity nurse, a newborn care specialist, rather than a nanny? The world doesn’t know. Like, what’s the difference between a newborn care specialist? Is it a fancier word for the same, or what?

Kim: [00:34:07] Are you anticipating primarily working in your city or do you think that you will try to work online somehow?

Ana: [00:34:15] So I would like, I would love to to do both, because, again, the online world is very much me. But obviously there’s nothing like I mean, there’s so many things I can’t do online. Right. If I’m going to show a mom how to, like, give her baby a bath, then I mean, there’s only so much I can show you online. It’s definitely not the same as being there and then being able to hold her hand as she holds the baby’s hand and positioning everything in the right place. The same with as a lactation consultant. Right. Like, there’s only so much that you can do online. But I think. I see online being an option, I see online being an option, because there’s also a lot you can do online and some people like, and especially in the world we live in. Sorry for bringing up the word, but with coronavirus, I mean, we’re going to be in quarantine again, and there’s going to be people in different parts of the world that are going to be isolated. Then the best way we can help them is going to be with a session online. And that should be always a choice. And sometimes because of urgency or because of other reasons they are not ready to have someone at home. And the choice would be to have that consultation online and take it from there. So I feel I guess that should always be a choice. But I don’t really have a plan as I’m going to be online based only or only in person. I feel like it’s going to be a combination of both.

Kim: [00:35:59] And you’ve spoken with quite a few people at this point with hearing birth stories from different places. Do you hear common themes from expat women in their birth stories? And are there some themes you can share with us?

Ana: [00:36:16] Well, one of the themes, especially now being in Hungary, is language. It’s a huge theme. Because hardly anyone, definitely no one, I mean, no one, very few very rare people move to Hungary knowing any Hungarian. I can speak from someone who, I am someone who is very passionate about language. It’s one of the ways you can show respect towards that country that you’re moving into and whatnot is at least learning the basics. So I’ve always been very like, I’ve been an advocate for, you know, like man, you’re traveling? Even if you’re traveling for a week, no? Learn how to say hello. Thank you. Goodbye. You know, and maybe a couple more things that would make someone smile and feel like you’re trying. Right. If anything. So when you move to a country you should definitely learn the language. And then here I am, six years in Budapest and my Hungarian in Hungary. And my Hungarian is very basic, to the point that I’m ashamed. And also language learning acquisition is my specialty. Like, that’s what I went to university for. And that’s like I’m a foreign language teacher and here I am not being able to learn this language or give this language the place it deserves, I feel in my life. But so it’s very hard, very hard. Most people don’t even bother trying. And those like me who try, struggle. So language for sure.

Kim: [00:37:46] Which just complicates everything. I mean, anyone who’s living in a foreign country understands the difficulty of trying to live a normal life or real life. It’s a little different from going on vacation because you have a whole layer

Ana: [00:37:58] Oh, definitely.

Kim: [00:37:58] Of life that you have to navigate that you don’t even encounter when you’re on vacation. But then when you get into something as intimate and personal as becoming a parent. Wow, there’s just so many, you have so many questions, fears, what-ifs. You don’t know how to find the information. You don’t know how to ask the information. You don’t know how to advocate for yourself in a culturally sensitive way that will be maybe pushing a boundary, but not pushing too far to where you actually end up getting worse care. Yeah, so much.

Ana: [00:38:29] And you definitely need to master everything, really. Because it’s from finding a good doctor to understanding that doctor, to being able to buy a certain product. So clothing, baby items, food, obviously, to then finding other baby or family related services like babysitter. And then you have to become a master also of navigating the city and getting to places and finding those places like from a playground, to kids school to anywhere you need to go. But again, these are places usually that you’re not familiar with. Here in Hungary we also have the what’s called in Hungarian vedonos. And vedonos are, they’re some sort of like social workers. They work for the government and they work to look after the child’s safety and health. But when you’re pregnant, you already have, like, some appointments that you have to and you have a booklet and the booklet has to be signed by them. And if that booklet is not up to date and you haven’t had your visits with the vedono, the government can come after you and say, hey, you’re not being a good parent. What’s happening with this child? and whatever. So here in Hungary, for example, you have to learn that there’s a vedono, but there’s so, so many things that involve and that spin around birth. And that’s why also I feel the name of the project, My Birth Story Abroad, which obviously it’s not just about birth, it’s the before and the after and everything that’s floating around.

[00:40:16] But so much. I mean, you had your first child in your home country. Yes? Wasn’t it already something you had never done before and something new and something…

Kim: [00:40:28] Absolutely. Yeah, it’s huge. It’s a big transformation in almost every way, and then to do that abroad is … Very big.

Ana: [00:40:39] I feel like there’s so many layers to giving birth abroad because yes, birth is birth. Definitely we all agree. But you definitely need a set of extra tools. One of the big challenges is truly not having your support system, not having your family, not having your friends, not knowing, and then there’s the not knowing where to go, not knowing how to do things, not understanding anything at all in those forms you have to fill out. Definitely lots of extra challenges. Then there’s the culture obviously involved.

Kim: [00:41:18] Yeah, and for me, one of the differences was when I was going through this whole transition process of going from a couple without children to a family and everything that was involved, it was really easy to find written information, whether it was in the phone book or at the library or online. It was really easy to search for and find written information. And I could read and get myself pretty up to date and up to speed and know how things worked and what questions to ask and all of that. And then we moved to a place where there’s a bit more relationship based culture. There’s less written information. Definitely in English it was very limited, but it was more about plugging into the right networks of people who had all that information and were happy to share it. And there was a big network and it was just a matter of finding that. And then here, it’s a place where it’s ALL about relationships. It’s all word of mouth transfer of information. And for me, as someone who likes to research through reading, that was a really big challenge.

Ana: [00:42:35] Definitely, yes, it certainly takes time and many moms don’t have the time because, like some of them would move to a country already pregnant. Three months when you’re in the last trimester are nothing. There’s so many things that you have to get done that really. Having to find out who your doctor is going to be, what would be the best birth place, and whether it’s a hospital or a birth center, depending where you are, or your home. There’s so much, so much to do already with the basics, with maybe getting your house ready and buying a few last items, getting mentally ready, being able to sleep, just things like that. There’s so much that goes on in that last trimester that having to worry about who’s going to be my doctor, what are my options for birth, who can translate this form for me? Because again, for me that’s not an added layer to my life because I’m married to a Hungarian. But again, most most expat women, many, I would say most still, will not be married to to a local. That brings me back to what you were saying. You need the people who know the people that will get you to where you need to be. Right. That will be your support system. So definitely we need, we need, we need those people, we need those people who know the people.

Kim: [00:44:08] Yeah, that’s one of the areas where I have seen people needing to make a huge leap in relying on people that, maybe in your home country, you would rely on your family and your friends and long term colleagues, and you have this established network of who you would reach out to in certain instances. And it’s the people you’re close to. And then when you move, you’re suddenly relying on a friend who’s more like an acquaintance at first, people who are not in your family, colleagues,… These are not the people you would normally call on for help with something intimate, like a medical situation. But you just have to.

Ana: [00:44:49] Definitely, and you are so grateful for them because they they become your people, right? So let’s say in a traditional situation, maybe you wouldn’t have your colleagues in Spain. We do, I guess. But I know that in many other cultures, you wouldn’t really have your colleagues coming to your house during the first weeks after your child has been born. Actually in here in Hungary, it’s not the case. So one of the things that that happened to me after I gave birth to Adam is that we were at home and no one was coming. And I was like, happy because really the people I knew were coming. People from and I’m sorry, from my husband’s side, we’re not coming, like not even his uncle or his three close friends didn’t come. And then one point it hit me, you know, it wasn’t after a few weeks. But I’m like, do your friends know that you’ve had a child? Yes. And I was like, are they not coming to meet him? Oh, well, you know, here in Hungary, we usually wait at least a month to go and visit anyone. And in Spain it’s the opposite. Like people go to the hospital hours after you’ve given birth The room can be filled up with people. And the mom is usually there being like, oh, my God, what are you doing here? But I guess if people were not there, then it would be very strange.

[00:46:17] So from going to the hospital, you know, within the first few hours after your child’s birth to not seeing anyone for a whole month, I was like, what’s this? What’s happening? And a beautiful thing that happened to me. So I feel like I was very lucky. And it goes back to what you were saying, the people who become your support system that maybe normally wouldn’t have been, those people at school. We had this thing that we would do at the American International School. So what we would do is there would usually be someone in charge, you know, whether it was their initiative or not. But it was a thing. So people would always do it for anyone giving birth, having had a child is that there was this online form. The idea was that people would cook a meal and then they would come to your house and they would deliver whatever it is that they made for you. And it was very well organized because like I said, you know, there was that one person taking lead, getting in touch with you and just like asking you a few basics, like, do you have any dietary restrictions? Are you allergic to anything? Is there anything you don’t eat? Blah, blah, blah. Spicy, no spicy. All those things you know, meat, no meat.

[00:47:30] And then there would be a schedule and then you were able to say things like, OK, I don’t want anyone to come and see us on the weekend, for example, or I only want people to come and see us during the weekends or, you know, within this this time and that time. So obviously, it was your choice on on your terms. Which you need at the time. And then people would sign up and then you would see that, so on and so on, were coming on Wednesday. And oftentimes they would even mention what they were bringing. Sometimes people would say some pasta, but sometimes people would say taco salad or spinach pizza. And then you knew then that they were expecting that taco salad or that Indian rice or whatever it was. And then you were looking forward to it. And obviously, you’re looking forward to seeing your friends, but mostly the food they were bringing. I mean, looking back, I.

Kim: [00:48:32] Let’s be real.

Ana: [00:48:34] Looking back, I mean, it’s the food, I appreciate the people, but it was. I still remember one of the ladies and she was so sweet too, like she was always like a very happy person, whatnot. And I knew her from just random conversations. But sometimes you connect with people. And she came with the huge texmex, I would say. But it was this amazing, perfect spicy bean thick soup with cheese. And I don’t know what else she brought in other tupperware on the side. And I still remember that. The meal was something sent from heaven because of everything. Really, though the thought again, seeing the person, the delicious food, the whole package was. And I really, really, really I would really recommend anyone you know, in any sort of community support system to do this as an initiative? It was, it’s so simple and it takes so little effort, really, from the person who wants to help. And it’s a game changer and it means so much to the person receiving it. And all you you’re doing really is cooking a meal. And not even cooking it, like with one couple who had a baby, I knew that they had a favorite Vietnamese restaurant. And I told them, hey, I’m just going to order from the restaurant and I’ll bring you that. Is that OK? But if you would rather, I mean, make you a Spanish omelet or something that you’re craving, I’ll do it. That’s fine. But I remember and they were like the Vietnamese takeaway is perfect. So, again, you don’t even have to cook, but just arrange a meal for someone and then they have it. And there were things also like the person in charge of initiating could the meals if you wanted to cook, but you couldn’t make it for whatever reason. So there were all sorts of possibilities that made things quite easy for, for everyone. And I don’t know. But we love cooking, both of us, and we cook quite well. But during those days, I was so happy not to not to cook and not to have to worry about it.

Kim: [00:50:40] All right, so there is one of your top tips. Do you have any other recommendations or suggestions for families giving birth abroad, whether in the preparation stage, how to seek out the support they need or planning or how to help each other out?

Ana: [00:50:55] I would I mean, one of my recommendation is to try and reach out to other moms who have been in your same shoes and just talk to as many moms as you can. Because I, and now I can say it was a mistake. I made the mistake. It was a naive mistake, obviously, with all good intentions. But during my first pregnancy, it was a good pregnancy, it was a healthy pregnancy. I was working full time. I worked until the week before I had my child. And like I said, you know, I was busy with work. I was busy with with my now husband, we were dating. And life was good. I had friends. I was still traveling.

[00:51:33] I would say definitely talk to people and read, even if it’s to a minimal extent, read and talk to talk to moms, because I didn’t. For me, I’ve always been very, like I follow my instincts and I trust nature and the chaos of the world and whatnot. And then things happen. And then I didn’t expect to have a C-section, but I ended up with a C-section, which thankfully it wasn’t an emergency C-section. So I knew three days prior to the intervention. So at least I got those three days. And again, it wasn’t an emergency, but things didn’t go the way I had thought. And I didn’t know anything. And I ended up at the doctor’s mercy, truly and completely.

Ana: [00:52:23] And I didn’t have options, I didn’t know, I didn’t know who to talk to, and I didn’t even even consider talking to anyone else. Now, looking back, I think, OK, fine, whatever happened, happened, and I live by that motto because I cannot change my story, but if I can. Not that I need to change or I should be changing anyone’s story, because that’s not my my purpose. But if through the sharing of my story, something clicks in the brain of a mom and she goes like, Hmmm! Whatever it may be, you know, and she feels the curiosity and the need to explore a bit more and have know where to go or know what to do, maybe, or know who to call. Even if you don’t know what to do in case of, you know. Like if that one doctor recommend something, how about going to another doctor and seeing again, like finding a second opinion. Right. That would be my thing. Definitely. I feel like I was very naive and very trusting. And now looking back, I think it’s good to have a plan B, Plan C. Know a bit more. I didn’t know anything.

Kim: [00:53:44] It’s hard to know what you don’t know.

Ana: [00:53:46] Until, you know.

Kim: [00:53:48] It’s hard to know how big this topic can be. Because, as you said, you loved babies, you were always babysitting, you were always around babies and you felt very comfortable and felt like it was a natural process. And so it would just kind of happen naturally. And those assumptions do make sense. And it’s hard to know that there’s such a world of information and knowledge that could be helpful. And I am coming to recognize that not everyone is a planner and researcher the way I am. Sometimes I am amazed that other people will spend way more time researching what car to buy than they would their options around becoming a parent. And I’m not one who spends a lot of time thinking about cars, you know, so that’s shocking to me. But I’m also coming to realize that some people just, they’re not researchers. It’s not how they approach the world. That doesn’t mean that their approach is wrong. It’s just not the way I approach things. However, I do still recommend getting the information. Yeah, making connections, kind of knowing where the help is in case you need it.

Ana: [00:54:55] Definitely, and I feel like maybe I would feel more like in the middle. I’m not like a super researcher, but it’s true that definitely I love hearing people’s experiences and I would always ask for people’s advice even if I end up doing something completely different. But I always like to hear like what person what that person did or that other person did. And then just again, finding my whatever works for me. But I always like kind of checking with others. Right.

Ana: [00:55:25] I like reading, definitely, but I’m not, again, like just… My story is an example, right? I felt comfortable and I didn’t feel comfortable as in I know it all or I know… It didn’t even cross my mind. I was just going with the flow. Like, I have a doctor, doctor’s saying everything is fine, I have the baby crib, I have some newborn clothes, I….

Kim: [00:55:53] Ok, so if people want to find you, where can they get in touch with you?

Ana: [00:55:57] So I’m very active on Instagram, so my handle is MyBirthStoryAbroad. And then my website, which is my my full name, so it’s AnaCuchiGracia.

Kim: [00:56:10] Thank you, Anna. It’s really been a pleasure just talking and letting the conversation flow as we reminisce, and hear about what you’ve been studying and learning and what you’re hoping to see in the future as well.

Ana: [00:56:24] Thank you, Kim, for the opportunity. I feel very honored and I am very grateful that I got to know you in the first place. If anything, it’s been very nice getting to know you and hearing about your story. And I definitely am very grateful on top of everything, that you found the time and the space to hear my experience and you were interested in what I’m doing. So really from the heart I’m very touched.

Kim: [00:56:56] It’s been a pleasure.

Ana: [00:56:57] And I really look forward to having you on the other side

Kim: [00:57:03] Yes, me too!

Ana: [00:57:04] So we can get to know you more.

Kim: [00:57:06] All right, great.

As Ana said, Birth is birth, but when you’re doing it in another country you need an extra set of tools.

I hope you enjoyed hearing more about what a doula is and all the different situations where a doula can help. I’m a big fan of hiring a doula, I had one for all of my births. If you’re not able to find someone local to you who’s a good match, there are some options online. Obviously in that case she wouldn’t come with you physically, but you could get some excellent preparation to empower you. One option I’m aware of is The Virtual Midwife, Karen Wilmot, and I’m sure there are others.

On that note of seeking out help from those who have specialized training, I also highly recommend to seek out your local La Leche League for breastfeeding support. That’s another lifeline, even if breastfeeding is going fantastic for you. And I suggest getting in touch before your baby is born, because then you’ll have the contacts and relationships and will feel more comfortable calling when you have questions. If you can’t find a local group or Leader, again, there are options online – some groups are quite active on Facebook and hold meetings in various formats. Online is certainly better than not having anyone to call on.

Stay tuned for the next part of this series on major life transitions – next time we’re talking about death, something we all have to face at some time or another.

I’d love to hear from you about what you took away from this conversation. As always, I welcome your emails at kim at resilient expats dot com, or find me on Facebook, @ Resilient Expats.